Light Land Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Now this topic is getting good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fendt Fahrer Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Ok here are two ET daughters of Bunny. top cow is: Anfield Blended Blossom who was classified Excellent and had a top record of 11143 kg milk with 4.6 % fat and 3.4 % protein. Bottom cow is Anfield Patrick Boom Boom also classified Excellent with 80'000 kg milk lifetime and a top record of 15775 kg milk, 4.70% fat and 3.52 % protein. Bunny, Boom Boom and Bonnie, another daughter of Bunny, where at one time canadian Production Champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fendt Fahrer Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 All these daughters of Bunny became ET donors as well. I will post some pictures of other top cows that where in my ET program during the past 22 years and then I will show you my current ones. That is if there is interest in my posting this. I dont want to sound like an advertising machine..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakescot Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Markus , very very interesting......lovely cows all backed up with some world class production figures.well done you ......sorry james doesnt diminish from your initial question........think actually it goes to highlight the benefits of ET done well and properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 All these daughters of Bunny became ET donors as well. I will post some pictures of other top cows that where in my ET program during the past 22 years and then I will show you my current ones. That is if there is interest in my posting this. I dont want to sound like an advertising machine..... Please do post more, now there great cattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Markus , very very interesting......lovely cows all backed up with some world class production figures.well done you ......sorry james doesnt diminish from your initial question........think actually it goes to highlight the benefits of ET done well and properly. And what exactly was his first question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 ok, now theres the thing from anfield vario............its all about the quality, I thought you were just talking about a MOET program for your suckler cows ,multiple ovulation and embryo transfer... ..yes you can buy embryos from pedigree breeders implanting this embryo into your own suckler cows to get her to carry this high value pedigree beef calf of high genetic merit...if you want to keep and breed pedigree cattle then that might be a good option for you. I looked at this back in the late 80`s I was asked for 1200 uk pounds a pregnancy when I thought of doing this, I was going to buy Simmental embryos to built myself up a herd of pedigree animals. As you say it saves you owning these expensive beef cattle...... the management issues I mentioned above still hold.............to get your recipients (in this case your suckler cows ) to get in calf you have to get it right.After all that expense so far remember this beef calf inside that cow could be the best animal you have seen, its quite likely to have a big backside and could quite possibly be too big for your cow to calve naturally anyway.in order to minimise the risk of losing this then several breeders I know who implant their own embryos will induce the recipients they use to calve and go for the elected ceasarian option. if you are just planning on selling calves in the livestock market as high quality 6 to 8 month olds whatever,like you are suggesting my point was the easiest way rather than trying to buy expensive bulls with the best beef value and competing with the pedigree breeders for theses bulls then you could use good proven AI bulls to get the best of blood to go over your own cows saving all the additional cost and work.you would still be better with a sweeper bull of some sort but doing that you would get away with one bull for your 30 cows as you would be hoping for at least 60% conception rate holding to the first AI I was actually directing that message at you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakescot Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 yes james.......sorry.........I remember your first question ..... Can anyone sum up what embryos are all about or has anyone ever done it? For people who don't know what embryos are its when you take the fertile eggs out of a purebred cow and mix it with the semen and then you can ai the crossbred cow, with the eggs of a purebred bull and a purebred cow and the cross holds to the bull. Would be interested to hear if anyone uses them, James. some folks have clearly done more than me with embryo work some very successfully as we can see and I think that highlights james that it does work, it just is not right for me , might be right for you tho??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 yes james.......sorry.........I remember your first question ..... Can anyone sum up what embryos are all about or has anyone ever done it? For people who don't know what embryos are its when you take the fertile eggs out of a purebred cow and mix it with the semen and then you can ai the crossbred cow, with the eggs of a purebred bull and a purebred cow and the cross holds to the bull. Would be interested to hear if anyone uses them, James. some folks have clearly done more than me with embryo work some very successfully as we can see and I think that highlights james that it does work, it just is not right for me , might be right for you tho??? Sorry John wasn't trying to get annoyed, I do appreciate people responding and I was extremly happy when people were posting photos and I hope lots more will be added Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 some folks have clearly done more than me with embryo work some very successfully as we can see and I think that highlights james that it does work, it just is not right for me , might be right for you tho??? Ai does and has been very successful in the family over the years, my grandad used to be an ai man and from that he has an enormous amount of knowledge on certain things about cattle, and he has about 50 straws from over the years gone by, so we'll be putting cows on bulls well gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 some folks have clearly done more than me with embryo work some very successfully as we can see and I think that highlights james that it does work, it just is not right for me , might be right for you tho??? Sorry didn't read this right well you see John I wanted opinions because I might try it next year, buy the embryos and give it a go, hopefully ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fendt Fahrer Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Just to be clear, embryos are not mixed with semen after they have been removed from the cow. That would be in-vitro. I will describe you what it involves. Once you have selected the donor cow (that is open and at the stage where she is ready to breed, ie long enough away from calving.) you call the vet. He will then check her uterus condition and check her time in the cycle. She should be about day 8-10 to start the Hormone injections. These Folicule stimulating Hormone injections are made for 4 days twice a day. On day 3 you will also inject the cow to come in heat. When the donor is in heat you breed her preferably twice or 3 times to the bull of your choice. 7 days later the embryos are then flushed out of the cow. If you have recipients ready you can implant some of your embryos and if you have more embryos than recipients the vet will freeze them for later thawing and implanting. If you wish to sell embryos you should have a certified vet, plus he needs to wash the embryos in a special solution to get them Export qualified. Now embryios can be sexed or even split to produce two identical offspring. These emryos are not exportable as the embryo shell had to be cracked for the sexing or splitting. In vitro is the process when you collect unfertilized eggs from a cow and then fertilize the egg in a dish before implanting them. I have never done this, but I think the eggs need to be grown in that dish until day 7...This aparently can be done with an already pregnant donor as well. Many people say implanting fresh embryos (ie not frozen) will result in better conception. I would dispute that. my reasoning for this is that fresh embryos are usually implanted in recipients that have been synchronized to be in heat on the same day as the donor. But frozen embryos can be implanted in a recipient that had a natural heat (usually much better timing is possible). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Land Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 What sort of empty rate do you have in your herd Anfield? Under 10% is good going here. The grass only frams have a hard time getting cows incalf because body condition is slow to return after calving eating low ME grass etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fendt Fahrer Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 always a problem here as well. But not because of the grass as our cows are fed in the barn all year they just go out for exercise. High production makes conception rates dwindle. We have about 60 - 70 percent conception on first service depending on time of the year. This last year we had lots of abortions because of mycotoxins I had missed in the spring when I was battling with depression. But I do not see any difference between AI or ET. As a matter of fact many cows that you can not get pregnant any more with AI catch better with ET. I would assume that those cows have blocked filopian tubes and the eggs can not descend in to the uterus to get fertilised, but if you implant an embryo that is not going to have to happen to get in calf. Although I must say this is my theory and nothing scientific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTractorCrazy Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 We have been using ET for about 10 years now. I have to say that the technology and succesrate have changed for the better since the beginning. We first had a 50% successrate with purchased embryo's to give our stock an quality injection of pure bred Belgian Blues, this costs money, sometimes more then the calf is worth, however the buy a calf from an other breeder of the same quality is mostly very expensive and would cost in our case around 300% more! Since about 4 years we use our own donorcows which have already proven themselves as we let them calf first and decide from there if they breed the best.. Nowadays we get a 75% succesrate for implantations. As we get our own embryo's the costs per embryo have gone down considerably and it is actually profitable to breed this way. As our herd is quite small, we only get about 3-4 calfs a season with ET. The rest is done with AI, we dont keep a bull around as we cant accomodate one. Instead we have our own nitrogen container, we can keep a stock of sperm which can always be at our disposal and makes it easier to be very selective in our use of bulls. Also with new technologies, we can now purchase/order sexed sperm, this costs about 30 dollars more, but you are sure to get a cow! If you are looking to start a herd, or give your herd a quality injection, i can definately recommend using embryo's! that is much less costly then purchasing top quality cows for your herd! Also you can use the least quality cows of your herd.. I am definately happy with the use of ET. On the last cow show we went, we had one cow winning her age categorie and won the prize of best group of cows which is a recognition that overall you have a good herd, or the best in comparison to the other participants of the cow show. Of the group(of three cows) all were born from mothers that came to this world through ET. Anfield is right that you get better results with natural heat rather then induced heat. A small note though, most of the time the synchronised induced heat will receive the least quality embryo's which cant be frozen in if there are any of those, before getting a A-quality embryo.., so succesrate might be influenced by that as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 We have been using ET for about 10 years now. I have to say that the technology and succesrate have changed for the better since the beginning. We first had a 50% successrate with purchased embryo's to give our stock an quality injection of pure bred Belgian Blues, this costs money, sometimes more then the calf is worth, however the buy a calf from an other breeder of the same quality is mostly very expensive and would cost in our case around 300% more! Since about 4 years we use our own donorcows which have already proven themselves as we let them calf first and decide from there if they breed the best.. Nowadays we get a 75% succesrate for implantations. As we get our own embryo's the costs per embryo have gone down considerably and it is actually profitable to breed this way. As our herd is quite small, we only get about 3-4 calfs a season with ET. The rest is done with AI, we dont keep a bull around as we cant accomodate one. Instead we have our own nitrogen container, we can keep a stock of sperm which can always be at our disposal and makes it easier to be very selective in our use of bulls. Also with new technologies, we can now purchase/order sexed sperm, this costs about 30 dollars more, but you are sure to get a cow! If you are looking to start a herd, or give your herd a quality injection, i can definately recommend using embryo's! that is much less costly then purchasing top quality cows for your herd! Also you can use the least quality cows of your herd.. I am definately happy with the use of ET. On the last cow show we went, we had one cow winning her age categorie and won the prize of best group of cows which is a recognition that overall you have a good herd, or the best in comparison to the other participants of the cow show. Of the group(of three cows) all were born from mothers that came to this world through ET. Anfield is right that you get better results with natural heat rather then induced heat. A small note though, most of the time the synchronised induced heat will receive the least quality embryo's which cant be frozen in if there are any of those, before getting a A-quality embryo.., so succesrate might be influenced by that as well! That summed it up very wel Wil Could I ask now, because I don't really understand the natural heat and induced heat? Sorry its probably not that complicated, but I don't know it all Thanks, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTractorCrazy Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I meant with those terms that it is most likely better that a cow gets in heat in her normal cycle (natural way) and then gets an Embryo implanted, then when a cow is "forced" to get in heat at the same time as the donor cow has her cycle. The vet can induce this to let the cycle of the recipient coincide with the donorcow so that when the embryo's are harvested, they can be directly placed into the recipients as they would also be in the same cycle(10 days after being in heat is the time when Embryo's have to be implanted..) Hope this helps. I have to translate it from my mother tongue, so might have trouble with terms coming accross correctly! cheers, -Wil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 I meant with those terms that it is most likely better that a cow gets in heat in her normal cycle (natural way) and then gets an Embryo implanted, then when a cow is "forced" to get in heat at the same time as the donor cow has her cycle. The vet can induce this to let the cycle of the recipient coincide with the donorcow so that when the embryo's are harvested, they can be directly placed into the recipients as they would also be in the same cycle(10 days after being in heat is the time when Embryo's have to be implanted..) Hope this helps. I have to translate it from my mother tongue, so might have trouble with terms coming accross correctly! cheers, -Wil No Wil, now it makes sence Thanks for the help, would be great to hear other peoples view and disagreements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakescot Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 there you go james , all the info you need and with the help of your vet,and grandad, you lookin after your cows well and you are away childs play.........NOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdeere6910 Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 there you go james , all the info you need and with the help of your vet,and grandad, you lookin after your cows well and you are away childs play.........NOT Nothing to do with cows is Childs play is it though John? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Land Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Your not wrong there Pat,had one jump over the breast rail in the shed this am with the cups still on,never done that before in her life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTractorCrazy Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 finally have the pictures from this years herd book show that we participated first two pictures are of one of our young cows(dont know the english term for 1 year olds) of 14 months that won her age category at the show. has been pointed for the Herdbook but dont know yet how high. the last picture shows the group we had at the show which won "Best group" the one on the left was last years "miss future" but was not in the right condition for the show this year(of course she is now, when we just had the last show of the year (pointed 87.6 AG)(where she did win "best cow 1 yr and older" ), her grandmother was a purchased ET which brought a lot of additional quality in our small herd. We will be using this one for donor ET. the middle one is the one from the other pictures as well. the one on the right is a better quality then the middle one, a month older though and is missing the height and weight the middle one has. The one on the right has the same grandmother as the one on the left, however her mother was also from ET. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdeere6910 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Some lovely cattle there wil, we call any female up til it's second calving a heifer. Under a year they can be called a stirk if they are weaned though. (usually in Scotland) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTractorCrazy Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 heifers they are then.. In holland we have quite a few names for different age categories, up to 4 months it's a calf, from then up to 18 months it's a "pink" up from 18 to calving a "vaars", first calved a "schot" and only after the second calving it is a cow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmermilkin82.050 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 heifers they are then.. In holland we have quite a few names for different age categories, up to 4 months it's a calf, from then up to 18 months it's a "pink" up from 18 to calving a "vaars", first calved a "schot" and only after the second calving it is a cow.. very good Wil, amazing looking heifers, at about 13 months, we call them slips, would any more pictures be possible? Was at the mart today, great looking heifers, and big demand on cross bulls :of We had twins, one took to the heifer, a big long heifer and the other is being bucket fed, pictures tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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