Fair Trade Farm Models

[Deere-est]

I guess inbetween in terms of materials would take us to SCALEdown kits which are in my view quite modestly priced. Although I only own two still in their kit form 

Maybe Imber has another theory, an individual does the hard work with all the R&D but engages the already existing benefits of a larger scale producer?

[Lord Ferguson]

sod it.. I've been up since the very early hours and Mrs F has just rung the bedtime bell... will have to pick this topic up again tomorrow..  :'( :'( :'(

[SOLOSHEP1]

I see Dave's point and never did before so I appreciate that insight. Whether the model is limited to 50 or made in batches of 50 - 500 it is still going to cost the same for the model to be manufactured and thus, for us to buy. Have I understood that right?

hi triss will try to explain just not good at this bit if i was just to produce 50 of one model only the cost to me would go through the roof in this country the resin tooling would not be a problem but the white metal tooling would cost a lot more because it could cast upto 500 models they would charge me accordingly to cover there tooling charges .have tried other companies here in the uk to reduce costs but the standard dropped to much so the parts are now in the scrap bin at our cost . our only option would be to move the casting and production abroad but that defeats what we are about to produce our models in our home country . just would like to add thanks to every one who has supported us here and abroad many thanks dave and amanda

[Marmitemania]

I think what puts the kybosch on production in this country is a number of things, the cost of the raw materials, insurance prohibitly high, factory rent, red tape snarling everything up, transport costs, I dont think it has much to do with the actual workers pay.

right that's it... James is getting a nipple cripple  :D  .. james... I love you... I share some, if not most of your views... BUT... please... lemon bloody flipping squeeze can we discuss the topic... go on... please... Dave P has just raised some valued points and I really want to drag em out into the playground and have some cracking good old FTF model debate about production costs etc..

go on.. I'll give you an FTF lollypop... jaffa cake flavoured... from Andy's bottom drawer in his big oak desk.. 

Marky says he loves me, oh I feel all warm and squishy inside.  ;D

[Deere-est]

hi triss will try to explain just not good at this bit if i was just to produce 50 of one model only the cost to me would go through the roof in this country the resin tooling would not be a problem but the white metal tooling would cost a lot more because it could cast upto 500 models they would charge me accordingly to cover there tooling charges .have tried other companies here in the uk to reduce costs but the standard dropped to much so the parts are now in the scrap bin at our cost . our only option would be to move the casting and production abroad but that defeats what we are about to produce our models in our home country . just would like to add thanks to every one who has supported us here and abroad many thanks dave and amanda

I see, thank you. 

[Simon]

The frustrating or sad thing about all of this is that Dave, and Dave Towse, have been going out of their way to produce the models we want for years, and then UH tune into it and all of a sudden their market is turned on it's head.... I've lusted after a DBP anything for years and it's always been a 'one day' purchase, but now UH launch the 78 and all my Christmasses come at once, it's the variant I want a a price I can afford and, knowing UH, will be as accurate as I want it to be. What - apart from far eastern mass production - differentiates the production methods of DBP and UH...? Is it purely labour cost which sets DBP's prices [and UH et al] or are they manufactured in a completely different way...? Could DBP become a British UH and manufacture here and match UH prices [reasonably] closely, say £10 a unit on top? If this were the case I'd never buy a UH again..! 

[SOLOSHEP1]

The frustrating or sad thing about all of this is that Dave, and Dave Towse, have been going out of their way to produce the models we want for years, and then UH tune into it and all of a sudden their market is turned on it's head.... I've lusted after a DBP anything for years and it's always been a 'one day' purchase, but now UH launch the 78 and all my Christmasses come at once, it's the variant I want a a price I can afford and, knowing UH, will be as accurate as I want it to be. What - apart from far eastern mass production - differentiates the production methods of DBP and UH...? Is it purely labour cost which sets DBP's prices [and UH et al] or are they manufactured in a completely different way...? Could DBP become a British UH and manufacture here and match UH prices [reasonably] closely, say £10 a unit on top? If this were the case I'd never buy a UH again..! 

hi heres something to get your head around this was in one of the news papers amanda read chinese urban citizen earn around £1400 to £1500 a year the rural citizen earns around £400 a year there food prices are to rise example tomatoes they paid 3 yuan for they will have to pay 5 yuan for soon . their leader said last year was a tough year this year will be harder. not so good for these people cheap labour ?

[Lord Ferguson]

in essence then Dave, given your production method 500 is the 'sweet spot' for producing in the most cost effective manner.  Many thanks for sharing this with us Dave.. It has certainly given me a better understanding of how things 'tick' in the production of our UK built models.

So.. when are we all going to club together and make a UK based business manufacturing mass-produced UK tracrors for the UK and European markets ... with Dave P and the Managing Director   \

[Gav836]

While on the subject of small scalemodel producers, I've had a few negative comments in the past about the price I charge for the beet harvester models I produce, to give people a little idea of how a small production run of 50 in resin pans out these are the ball park costs involved......

Master production, by myself, materials £40 + approx 100hrs of my time

Molding costs £600

Resin Kit each £40

Additional materials per kit for assembly £30 (wheels, decals, plasticard, rams, wire)

Painting costs each £10 for red, £15 for green

You can then add electricity for the painting, hole drilling, cutting, shaping and trimming up involved plus yet another 10-12 hours of my time to put each one together along with phonecalls to casting firm and carriage costs. If I were to charge for my time at what I could be getting doing other jobs then the model suddenly becomes very unaffordable to 95% of collectors.

There's absolutely no way that I could sell them for less money than I currently am having trimmed the price as low as possible in the first place. Should the likes of one of the big boys decide to build a similar model then I know full well that the chances of me selling many more of mine are slim and I'm sure that day will come in the not too distant future with the amount of companies springing up these days

[Simon]

hi heres something to get your head around this was in one of the news papers amanda read chinese urban citizen earn around £1400 to £1500 a year the rural citizen earns around £400 a year there food prices are to rise example tomatoes they paid 3 yuan for they will have to pay 5 yuan for soon . their leader said last year was a tough year this year will be harder. not so good for these people cheap labour ?

So I guess the material cost for UH, producing thousands, is a small proportion of the unit sale price, and labour could be as little as pence per unit, the remainder of the revenue is taken up by R&D costs and profit. While you're up against a siginificantly higher material cost and the remainder going towards your labour, which has to include your R&D and margin....

I suppose the question we all want answered then Dave is - because if we had a simple choice of buying a UH for 40 quid or a DBP for [work with me here  ] 50 quid, I think we'd probably all go with Dave's UK made model - how many units would you need to retail annually to allow you to get some economy of scale to reach this competitive pricing and improve your margins from where they are now? And perhaps more pertinently, how limited do you think your range of models would have to be? 

[Big Al]

Simon. My thoughts exactly.  It's time the fightback commenced. However, we are all talking here on what is essentially an open forum. The conversations that need to take place would need to be where certain organisations don't get too much or even the minutest idea on what people here are thinking. The starting point is stop telling the world all our good ideas.  Second thing is more selective purchasing. Third thing is formation of a master mind group. I'll leave it at that as some of you will get the thread. I don't want to say too much here. The conversations are for elsewhere.

[Massey Boys Mum]

Simon. My thoughts exactly.  It's time the fightback commenced. However, we are all talking here on what is essentially an open forum. The conversations that need to take place would need to be where certain organisations don't get too much or even the minutest idea on what people here are thinking. The starting point is stop telling the world all our good ideas.  Second thing is more selective purchasing. Third thing is formation of a master mind group. I'll leave it at that as some of you will get the thread. I don't want to say too much here. The conversations are for elsewhere.

For some reason I find your thoughts unsettling. I really would like to know a bit more about you Big Al.... \

[Deere-est]

I think Big Al is interested in the subject of domestic collectors purchasing models produced thousands of miles away when, albeit in a smaller form we have people here (as others do in their home countries) who can produce just as good quality models. He sounds to me like, given (or should he make himself) half a chance, he would like to be involved in turning the tables. Quite the opposite of unsettling!!

[Simon]

I think Big Al is interested in the subject of domestic collectors purchasing models produced thousands of miles away when, albeit in a smaller form we have people here (as others do in their home countries) who can produce just as good quality models. He sounds to me like, given (or should he make himself) half a chance, he would like to be involved in turning the tables. Quite the opposite of unsettling!!

All in favour say 'AYE'..... 

[Big Al]

Aye.

[Deere-est]

Now, as a Moderator I should be revoking these replies as "One word replies". . .

Now, with that said I am safe to say...

"Aye"

[B O R]

Gav,you have pointed it out in a very honest way,your theory and costs very much apply to me as well,its just nice to see that someone else has actually listed the approximate costs of small scale production....to be honest i cast very little,all foragers are still handbuilt so the initial outlay stays low and i can also discontinue  any model at any time without taking a loss,but then each model requires all the time and effort of the last one...but for any man who does pump his own money into a model production project then unfortunately he is at risk of the item he is planning coming into production from UH or similar.Now the unfortunate thing is that if im(and most others) doing a tractor convo then the 4-5 tractors im using have to be bought from UH to get the parts as they cover most popular makes and models so there is no way round this i think.It seems to me now that there are more specialist models coming from UK AND EIRE than ever before,a while back we all admired the scratchbuilders from other countries and then we find good builders emerging from our own countries.unfortunately small scale production will always involve a more expensive model for the customer and i find we are on our own battling away to survive..

[Marmitemania]

Jo I do have to side with you on this one, he does come across with a slightly sinister undertone that I cant quite put my finger on, but then again it may be nothing, we have to give people the benefit of doubt.

For some reason I find your thoughts unsettling. I really would like to know a bit more about you Big Al.... \

[Marmitemania]

PS im not S**t stirring either, and no offence is ment to BIG Al, I suppose it was just the fightback and conversations behind closed doors that I have missconstruded.

[Massey Boys Mum]

PS im not S**t stirring either, and no offence is ment to BIG Al, I suppose it was just the fightback and conversations behind closed doors that I have missconstruded.

It's nice to be agreeing with you about something James!

Even I have come clean on this forum about what colour tractors I prefer .... it just makes people feel a little more comfortable I think? We will have to wait and see if Big Al comes out of the closet soon ...!

[SOLOSHEP1]

It's nice to be agreeing with you about something James!

Even I have come clean on this forum about what colour tractors I prefer .... it just makes people feel a little more comfortable I think? We will have to wait and see if Big Al comes out of the closet soon ...!

if he was to come out of the closet is wife and children would panick 

[Lord Ferguson]

:D   .... I guess it's Big Al's right to remain anonymous if he so chooses... after all that's the essence of a forum.. he can be just 'Big Al' and nothing more if he chooses to be  \

Whoever he is he (or she I suppose)... has raised some valid points and created some good discussion... as for saying Aye.... Aye by the way...

Seriously... I'd be interested in putting some money into manufacturing under the right set of criteria.. food for thought

[Massey Boys Mum]

Completely agree with you Marky. He did not respond to your 'Dig & Doug' post did he?

Forums are good in this way - you don't have to say anything except what you want to say. Do you know, I am completely guilty here, I did not think of Al being a woman! That's crazy because one of my bestest female friends was a girl called Al, sadly lost her to ovarian cancer in 2007.

[Big Al]

Regarding the last post I am unable to confirm or deny whether I have come out of the closet. That of itself may pose an interesting question.. how many people do you know who have a computer in their closet. There isn't much room for an 8690 Massey in the closet. As to the idiosyncracies of this particular individual it really is best not to get too bogged down unless you have got a very strong chain and access to a couple of high horespower machines on firm ground.  Big Al, aka Baaaa..ig Baa..Al as he is affectionately known by sheep throughout the world is currently involved in an extensive and intensive review of past events with a view to making things happen in the not too distant future. Thankfully isostatic readjustment is not currently involved. At this time it would be much too difficult to elaborate on this.. sorry about that, but as this is an open forum I ought not to say much more.  I can give a small insight in so far as this evening my research has involved dealings in both New York and Paris. Today it has certainly been true that the devil is in the detail and Meryll is a headache. Sometimes the hassle wears a bit thin. However as they would say in prada... the show must go on.

[Massey Boys Mum]

So I deduce - you like Masseys?

You could be:

Female or

Shaun the Sheep

or (my preferred option) An Alien from outerspace!

Or,I forgot, on some kind heavy weed man ...