Hardy Beef Cattle

[An Interested Spectator]

One for the real farmers !

In terms of coping with being kept outside during the UK winter I was wondering which beef/dual purpose breeds are considered the most hardy ?

The obvious ones are Highland, but what other breeds ?

Cheers as ever

Adie

[Jdeere6910]

Not personal expirience as we have continentals which are housed over winter. However heard good reports for Angus, Welsh Black, Galloways and even some Shorthorns doing well outside over winter. As always it depends on the supplimenting feeds they are given in the field, grass type/quality/quantity and weather conditions.

Hope this helps a bit Adie

regards Patrick

[powerrabbit]

The breeds with the most hair on them!    You would really be hard pressed to find a dual-breed that would fit the bill as the true definition of 'dual-breed' is an animal that is suitable for the production of both meat and milk and tend to be cross-breds between beef and dairy types whereas the 'hardy' type are typically pedigree such as the Highland, Galloway, (black and belted) and Welsh Black. Next hardy are the Aberdeen Angus and the North Devon.

[the other green]

Since we rented our land out, Dad is "playing" at being a cattleman with around 35 cows. Most of these are Belted Galloways, being a bit of a nostalgia kick since that's the local breed back where we came from in Scotland. He is quite surprised at how much less feed they require in winter and also, last year was a challenging year (to say the least) to put up quality hay, he is pleased with how they wintered on the lower quality feed compared to the Limo, Simmy, Red Angus crosses that make up the rest of his little herd.

He is planning on down-sizing a little more and would like to have around 25 cows and, at this time, his plan is for them all to be the Belties.

[archbarch]

most of the native British breeds will over winter outside perfectly ok. The main thing is a good hedge to shelter from the wind, decent free draining ground and dont overstock.

[roberthenning]

I test cattle up in a pretty cold hilly/mountainous area, and the majority of cattle are limousin pure and crosses, and a few charlios and are mostly all wintered out. They are pretty much the two best breeds for beef and winter out well. The reason they have become so popular in our area and the other rarer ones are pretty much phased out is because they have become unpriductive in this day and age.

No dairy herds are out wintered over here, and more are going to zero grazing as its too damaging to their health haveing to walk twice a day all the year around the distance would be astronomical for the ground needed in winter to walk the average 150 dairy cow herds that are over here. Although know of a few in scotland that do it and works well for them

[Massey Boy]

I know most the farmers round me that outwinter there cattel have mainly simmental.

[powerrabbit]

If you want a hardier type of bovine you have to go for the traditional native breed to the area of where they are indiginous. Unfortunately, over the last 3 decades or so, the need for increased production of larger beef animals and volumes of milk production to satisfy the demand of the markets have led to these traditional breeds being neglected in favour of the crossbred animals to fulfill these needs and has led to the 'modern' breeds being less hardy, more susceptable to disease and health problem issues. The issues that surrounds BSE in in dairy cattle derrives in my observation, not on what they are fed, but in their breeding. These animals are so inter-bred and too closeley related which affects their nervous system, there were never any cases of this in the old British Friesian, it has only manifested itself in the Holstein breeds and therein lies other problems in that their frame is so light that they cannot sustain the constant weight and strain of carrying so much udder tissue and volume of milk production for any more than 4 to 5 years which also causes foot health problems with lameness and this is why they can't walk very far or sustain the journey to the grazing field day in day out. Another thing that might interest the cattle stockman is the subject of Bovine TB. This was discovered in cattle in 1919 and has been going on ever since, why has the Government never done anything about it instead of just talking about it? I'll leave you to your own thoughts and conclusions on that one!

[Jdeere6910]

Having a lot of first hand expirience with Holstein cows I can agree with Tims views. However for a farmer on a "white water" contract at 25ppl the Holstien makes more sense to the farmer, afterall a Holstein pushing 11,000 litres with acceptable fats and proteins is good. Despite being THE milk machine, I will admit holsteins are problematic, partly I feel is because they have lost all the hybrid vigour that they once had, and as Tim said interbreeding is occuring. Best way to describe a Holstein in my eyes is like a Ferrari, they go like stink for the first laps of a race, then they break down. Wheras something like a friesian/jersey cross is like a BMW doesnt go as fast but will do a 100 laps without bother. As with most parts of farming I think its a lot to do with the farmer, breed society and buyer of the milk rather than what is the most effective cow.

TB well I wont air my views on that 

[Light Land]

Holstein's are falling from favour on many lower input farms over here.The grass based system with around 300kg/DM brought in feed per cow (often maize) and being outdoors all year even in the snow some times! and the daily walking some times 3km to the milking shed is to much for them,Jersey X Friesian cows are a beter bet here.

Best daul breed cows in the world are Swedish red and whites I feel.

[powerrabbit]

I used to run a herd of 44 milkers on 86 acres, 33 of which was reserved for grazing and the rest for hay and silage for winter feed and being right on the edge of Dartmoor at 1000ft the winters were long in cow terms and feeding conserved feed started at the beginning of September and went through usually to the second week in may before we could 'turnout' again so we had to put away a fair bit of grub to last through. We also tilled a field of kale every year which would be fed in strip grazing from the end of October until the end of April, it had to be finished before it came to flower as brassica flowers are high in oestrogen which causes abortion. When I was milking the price of milk payed per litre was based on the butterfat content and with a small herd we maintained this by having 4 Guernseys in the herd that contributed to this and our butterfat content, which was tested at least twice a week at the dairy, always came out at 34.75% which was very good for this area. It all came down to management, knowing the limitations of what you could produce from a number of animals that could be kept and maintained on a limited acreage, knowing your soil and its shortcomings in trace elements, supplementing any lacking by adding to the dry food such as nuts fed in the parlour which would keep the cows in good health and vigour and the same applies to all livestock. My Father always used to say, 'you only get something out if you put something in'!

[Jdeere6910]

'you only get something out if you put something in'!

Couldn't agree with you more Tim, especially as cows go. There has to be a lot of food and time going into a Holstein to get a high milk yeild out of her

[powerrabbit]

Forgot to add that with the high yeilding Holsteins, they are absolute sods to get back in-calf whilst they are milking heavily and if they did come bulling they would 'return' several times until their yeild started to drop off, too much of their energy going into milk and they were always hungry. Another thing that I observed with them was that their dung was always very loose all times of the year no matter how much 'dry' food they consumed, even through the winter, they never produced a hard turd in their life.

[Deere-est]

If you want a hardier type of bovine you have to go for the traditional native breed to the area of where they are indiginous. Unfortunately, over the last 3 decades or so, the need for increased production of larger beef animals and volumes of milk production to satisfy the demand of the markets have led to these traditional breeds being neglected in favour of the crossbred animals to fulfill these needs and has led to the 'modern' breeds being less hardy, more susceptable to disease and health problem issues. The issues that surrounds BSE in in dairy cattle derrives in my observation, not on what they are fed, but in their breeding. These animals are so inter-bred and too closeley related which affects their nervous system, there were never any cases of this in the old British Friesian, it has only manifested itself in the Holstein breeds and therein lies other problems in that their frame is so light that they cannot sustain the constant weight and strain of carrying so much udder tissue and volume of milk production for any more than 4 to 5 years which also causes foot health problems with lameness and this is why they can't walk very far or sustain the journey to the grazing field day in day out. Another thing that might interest the cattle stockman is the subject of Bovine TB. This was discovered in cattle in 1919 and has been going on ever since, why has the Government never done anything about it instead of just talking about it? I'll leave you to your own thoughts and conclusions on that one!

Reads like a quote from something published, Tim! A man of many talents one would assume.  ...  :laugh: :laugh:

[powerrabbit]

Never quote anything I see published, most of what you read is crap anyway. It's just that when getting into a subject that fires me up I just cant help it!, got to state my feelings, trouble is, none of those that are higher up in the chain that could actually do something never take any notice of those of us that actually have the experience and know as we're dealing with the consequences of their mis-infomed brains and twist things to favour their position, it keeps them in a job that we are paying through the nose for in both financial and asset loss. Anyway, better get back to the topic me thinks. 

[MF-ROB]

well i think that beef cattle shouldnt be outside in the winter as you will be pouring meal and silage into them just to keep them alive and all that grass and meal they have ate in the summer will soon fall off there backs because of the cold so your pouring money down the drain in my eyes but thats just me my dad and i work on this (if you cant house them dont have them

There is some farmers around me do keep them outside in the winter they have Angus,Galloways and limousin they put them out to stubble and build rows of round bale straw to stop the wind and have feed trailers out with them 

[powerrabbit]

Winter housed cattle can be just as vulnerable as out-wintered. You mus have good ventilation in the house otherwise the cattle can suffer respiratory problems such as pneumonia and of course you must keep them clean underfoot. Out-wintered cattle need a certain amount of shelter from cold winds but its not what falls on their backs you need to worry too much about, it's the underfoot conditions you need to keep an eye on and not to let them poach the ground or keep feeding them in the same place or they could end up with conditions such as 'blackleg' or 'mud fever', keep shifting their feeders and troughs and if they do start to poach, shift them to cleaner ground. Feeding through the winter is most important, feed to appetite and don't think that just because it's cold that they won't drink as much, in fact they will drink more. Cattleare at their most susceptible to health problems at around the time of 'turnout' and this is when they tend to loose body weight as their diet changes from mostly dry feed to grass and it takes a while for them to adapt to their new diet, you should introduce them to grass after the winter gradually by only letting them out for an hour or so to restrict their intake and gradually increase this time over about two weeks, cattle gorging themselves on grass straight away runs the risk of them having grass staggers, especially if they are milking or suckling, a condition that is caused by low calcium in the system which causes lethargy and loss of self control which eventually leads to coma and death very quickly if the symptoms are not treated, 1/2 litre of Calcium Boroglucamate under the skin or intravenously straight into the jugular, in the latter, it is very important that no air should enter otherwise you'll kill it. Am I rambling on too much? 

[archbarch]

fully agree with the Tims comments on the Holstein, i would say the same applies to most of the continental beef breeds. I remember my time rearing calves in the 80s and my fathers own experience lim x calves were nothing but trouble from calving onwards. Angus, Hereford, Longhorn, Sussex etc you didnt have to worry about them, they were born fighters.

I do wonder whether the extra rewards/money from continental breeds is worth it? with all the extra cost and work involved.

[powerrabbit]

Agree with you there Simon, these Continentals are 'soft' and take more looking after. We used to put some of our cows to a Limmo and they were indeed fighters, a bit too much really, tended to be a bit on the wild side. First time calving of hiefers we used a Friesian or Herriford as they tended to be smaller calves when born and would be easier to calve and present few problems in being born whereas the Limmo was a longer but thinner calf at birth so you needed a fairly deep bodied cow to carry and let them develop properly during the gestation. The Simmental and Blonde De'aquatain types seemed to need a longer gestation period, up to 3 weeks longer in a lot of cases and of course, being in the cow longer would end up with them being much larger and potentially more difficult at calving, you need a pretty big cow to pass these without assistance! We found that with the Holstein Fresians, these at birth seemed to lack the brains, you had to tend to them soon after birth to get them to suck the cow as they seemed to lack the ability to find the teats but once you started them off they usually got the general idea. It's all swings and roundabouts!

[Jdeere6910]

We know a farmer with Angus x cows that decided that they would keep all the cows and calves outside over winter, just put them in a sandy field with a hilltop and a shelter, feeds outside and everything. Says that the cows have done better than ever this way.

I couldnt agree with you more about the continentals Tim, except we had a Blonde x Blue x holstein that would never suck, spent 2 weeks look like it was going to die, tried everything. But slowly he took off so we turned him out, never was seen with his mother or the other calves, but was developing some real shape, anyway one day I see him suckling about 4 different cows and his mother. Sold him through our local market at 14 months, 3 week ago, topped the market at 219ppkg and came to over £1000, not bad for a backward calf of continental blood 

[Light Land]

There is a train of thought in NZ that if you "peak" a holstien cow as high as you can get her then don't worry if you can't get her in calf as long as you keep poking in plenty of feed often in NZ it's Palm kernal and maize silage and a few spuds/carrots blended in a mixer wagon plus decent grass that she will keep milking untill next mating time with no dry time.(Like others have said it's hard to get them to hold the AI straw when there pumping)

One local farmer to me told me a few weeks ago he has holstiens in one group that have'nt calved for 3 years and he will keep milking them untill they drop under 12ltrs per day them send them off to be killed.The odd TMR farm here some times only calve there cows every 24 months.

While I worked in Canada on a suckler farm the red angus cows had a choice of a straw pile out side or a straw beded barn and even at -30 the cows were sleeping outside.

[the other green]

Have to say this is a really good topic, keep it up everyone.

[Rick]

My family in Alberta have over a 1000 head and no barn....plus -25 degrees............few cattle ranches here have barns anymore...may have small holding pens with cover or small A frame shed for young calfs if the weather turns nasty or seperating them from their mother...

[An Interested Spectator]

First, thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic, it has been a very good, and informative read.

I have never worked in agriculture, but as my handle indicates, I am fascinated by the subject.

From my outside looking in view, even as a youngster when my father work on a farm, I always questioned the economics of producing feed and bedding to feed to animals indoors during winter, and then removing and spreading their waste afterwards, particularly when nature had designed said animals to live outside. I am given the impression that some farmers are so concentrated on producing forage feed, that the art of managing grazing animals has been lost to a certain extent.

Having read much about 'wintering out' the one thing that has struck me more than anything else is that those who have made it work have a total grazing management policy for the whole year cycle. Those who have been less successful with it, to some extent, appear to be those who have sown a couple of fields of kale to save a bit of money in the short term. A bit like mini till, those who embraced it whole heatedly made it work, less so those who kept a plough just in case. The rider for both those examples is, of course, that you have the right ground and weather conditions to start with.

The reality of the future is likely to be that the cost of inputs will continue to rise far faster than the prices farmers receive for their goods. Which means farmers either have to expand to gain economies of scale, or go to a low cost production methods to cut costs. And until science comes up with another option, wintering out is really the only, low cost, option.

The other problem for farmers in the future will be the amount of green houses gasses caused by stock farming. Producers may be forced to reduce the amount of co2 they produce, IE less tractor movements, to offset the methane produced by the animals themselves. Silage make become a thing of the past purely because of the amount of co2 from the diesel burned to produce it, to feed animals that then produce a worse greenhouse gas in methane.

The above are the musings of a barely educated amateur. Please feel free to shoot me down in flames .

As usual

Cheers

Adie.

[Light Land]

First, thanks to everyone who has replied to this topic, it has been a very good, and informative read.

I have never worked in agriculture, but as my handle indicates, I am fascinated by the subject.

From my outside looking in view, even as a youngster when my father work on a farm, I always questioned the economics of producing feed and bedding to feed to animals indoors during winter, and then removing and spreading their waste afterwards, particularly when nature had designed said animals to live outside. I am given the impression that some farmers are so concentrated on producing forage feed, that the art of managing grazing animals has been lost to a certain extent.

Having read much about 'wintering out' the one thing that has struck me more than anything else is that those who have made it work have a total grazing management policy for the whole year cycle. Those who have been less successful with it, to some extent, appear to be those who have sown a couple of fields of kale to save a bit of money in the short term. A bit like mini till, those who embraced it whole heatedly made it work, less so those who kept a plough just in case. The rider for both those examples is, of course, that you have the right ground and weather conditions to start with.

The reality of the future is likely to be that the cost of inputs will continue to rise far faster than the prices farmers receive for their goods. Which means farmers either have to expand to gain economies of scale, or go to a low cost production methods to cut costs. And until science comes up with another option, wintering out is really the only, low cost, option.

The other problem for farmers in the future will be the amount of green houses gasses caused by stock farming. Producers may be forced to reduce the amount of co2 they produce, IE less tractor movements, to offset the methane produced by the animals themselves. Silage make become a thing of the past purely because of the amount of co2 from the diesel burned to produce it, to feed animals that then produce a worse greenhouse gas in methane.

The above are the musings of a barely educated amateur. Please feel free to shoot me down in flames .

As usual

Cheers

Adie.

I do as well,I've often looked at pictures on here and thought....All them tractors all that muck all that silage and for so few animals. :of

(I'll duck now.)