min till

[Paul Palmer]

on min til farms do they ever use the plough? i worked on 2 and although 1 farm did have a plough i never seen it used,never,but i know you get problems with blackgrass,so does the plough get used? thanks in advance

[ploughmaster]

I did go for an interview on a proper min-till farm a few years ago (didn't get the job though  ). He didn't use a plough at all (didn't possess one) and any panning was broken using a mole drain rather than rifting the land up with a subsoiler. By keeping the soil disturbance to a minimum, he had improved his worm counts by about threefold, and it was they who were doing much of the subsurface cultivation for him!

He kept on top of blackgrass by using a combination of cultivating with a pig-tail type drag to about 3" followed by repeat doses of Glyphosate combined with not drilling wheat until late October. 

For rape, the stubble was barely scratched (about an inch), and the same cultivator was used before beans (to only 5" at  most), 

Most farms that use min-till often use a plough in rotation once every 3 to 5 years to break pans and bury the weed seeds.

It is worth pointing out that a lot a farms that think they are using min-till, are not doing so at all - many of them still use regular subsoiling and heavy cultivation equipment working at significant depths.  They are actually performing what should be referred to a non-inversion tillage which retains all the negatives of ploughing, and allows blackgrass etc to proliferate too  . 

[Paul Palmer]

thanks ploughmaster,that told me everything i wanted to know,what we used on the last farm i worked was a simba horsch 8 metre  cultivator right behind the combine , hardly scratching the surface,apart from when growing beans,then we went deeper,some fields not all were subsoiled,thanks again

paul

[neilw]

does the term "non inversive" tillage relate to what equipment is used, or to what depth it is used??

I thought the term minimum tillage was how many passes over a field were made (plough, power harrow, seeder, rolls compared to min till implement, seeder, rolls)

[Paul Palmer]

does the term "non inversive" tillage relate to what equipment is used, or to what depth it is used??

I thought the term minimum tillage was how many passes over a field were made (plough, power harrow, seeder, rolls compared to min till implement, seeder, rolls)

non inversive means the soil not being turned over,which as we know is what the plough is for

[neilw]

so the likes of the simba solo, vaderstadt topdwon etc are classed as min till implements, even though they are capable of going deep in to the soil - going through it rather than turning it over?

[Paul Palmer]

so the likes of the simba solo, vaderstadt topdwon etc are classed as min till implements, even though they are capable of going deep in to the soil - going through it rather than turning it over?

yes they are

[Niels]

Min till could be anything. Is a very very common name with different meanings.

From Google:

Minimum tillage involves reducing cultivation depth and can avoid the use of the plough i.e. non inversion of the soil. The technique enables cheaper and quicker establishment and is predominantly used for winter cereals and winter oilseed rape. The approach can involve a number of techniques including direct drilling, broadcasting into existing stubbles or adopting a strategy of reduced tillage.

Often Wikipedia is the preferred source. More to be found about all sorts of tillage here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tillage

That firm for instance doesn't even rule out the plough as a method of min-till. Though in common farmers knowledge min-till is working on a non-plough basis. 9 out of 10 people still class subsoilers and deep cultivators as min-till though.

In my opinion min-till is adjusting your crop establishment methods to the current situation. I.E has it been a wet summer, bone dry, late, early etc.. Not just farming on auto-pilot which a lot of people do. The first step is often leaving the plough in the shed. The big issue is that min-till starts getting truly beneficial, in terms of soil life, after about 5 years. That is also the same year when a lot of people get their ploughs out again, which means you have to start all over again building up your soil structure and soil life.

[Pingu]

We plough, well ploughed 800 acres last year to try and get rid of blackgrass but unfortunately it didn't work in fair few places so my spraying workload hasn't got any lighter really :'(  and the rest of our ground last year another 1700 was min-tilled.  But anyone that use's a plough to remove any pans is a twonk and there operators need teaching as need to vary depths a little every year so don't get a pan!  Thats what subsoilers are for! We run a 6m vaderstad topdown and don't have problems with pans off it and plough creates more of a pan to start with anyway

[Paul Palmer]

pingu,what tractor pulls your 6 metre topdown?

[Pingu]

Cat challenger MT 865 wakes it up well  :D

[Paul Palmer]

thanks pingu,had a day driving one of those while our 765 was back at the dealers workshop,what a beast of a machine,and thanks for replying

[ploughmaster]

We plough, well ploughed 800 acres last year to try and get rid of blackgrass but unfortunately it didn't work in fair few places so my spraying workload hasn't got any lighter really :'(  and the rest of our ground last year another 1700 was min-tilled.  But anyone that use's a plough to remove any pans is a twonk and there operators need teaching as need to vary depths a little every year so don't get a pan!  Thats what subsoilers are for! We run a 6m vaderstad topdown and don't have problems with pans off it and plough creates more of a pan to start with anyway

You are referring to 'Plough-Pans' which are not what I was referring to.  Pans are any layer of compacted soil and are mostly caused by heavy traffic. If there is panning at less than plough depth (and that's where it usually is in a reduced tillage system), ploughing can make a better job of breaking it up than a subsoiler (which won't work very well at shallower depth).

In a genuine min-till, the main aim is to disturb the minimum amount of soil necessary to build up a permanent tilth in the top few inches of the soil and to allow the worm population to build up (their activity will achieve a far better soil structure than constantly heaving the soil about with heavy equipment (hence why the farm in my example above uses a mole to break pans rather than a subsoiler). 

A major feature of the system is to try to cut out the deep compaction which necessitates the deep cultivations.  This is why it is very important to make a definate distinction between 'Min-Till' and reduced cultivation/non inversion tillage. In the latter, you may still be working to a considerable depth and performing deep soil loosening on a regular basis, and so will not build up that fertile layer in the top few inches, the deeply loosened soil can be more prone to compaction damage too, and more importantly, you won't get as many worms !!

In a system based on the use of a tool such as a Topdown or Solo, you are probably moving the soil to a depth of 12-16", which cannot seriously be considered as minimum tillage under anyones definition!

[Pingu]

A plough-pan is a layer of compaction and we personally find the worst 'pans' are on fields that have been ploughed we have plough pans at ploughing depth, none fields were ploughed in wet conditions all bone dry and tractor ploughing on land so no smearing that way.  Min-till is often referred to as minimum amount passes on a field moving soil that is only required and we have tried direct drilling but we had the best and worst yields off it so we've tried many systems with best being with topdown which works down to a max 8-10 inches any more and subsoiler is called in which is only after wet years where as you say get compaction from heavy traffic. 

More often then not compaction in top layers can be removed with direct drill on its pass if needed.  Normally moving top few inches in min-till is all thats needed and can remove pans and any little compaction needed.  What I was saying plough shouldn't need to be used to remove pans it's too inefficient and cause more harm then good in some situations remove all good min-till has done.  A subsoiler should help aerate soil which air will soon help soil condition and will not destroy worm populations like a plough.

[archbarch]

soil type and slug pelletts have the greatest effect on worm counts not ploughs!!!

I do think a Mole plough is the most important yet under-used bit of kit on any farm with heavy soil and should be part of the rotation.

[Tractorman810]

can i ask is min till all dependant on soil type?? or can anyone do it, when we still farmed it was all plough then harrow before seed, the clay was very heavy and flinty almost like gavs way,

[Deere-est]

Going by the last page of replies, Sean I'd say you can do it on any soil type as min-till doesn't seem to have one particular meaning but is a title used by many people for many different ways. Reduced passes, reduced depth, reduced soil movement.... All of which could be applied anywhere.

can i ask is min till all dependant on soil type?? or can anyone do it, when we still farmed it was all plough then harrow before seed, the clay was very heavy and flinty almost like gavs way,

With that phrase you are beginning to sound like Uncle Albert, "During the wa-ar...."  :laugh:

[Tractorman810]

was 11 years back now mate 1999 it was all sold almost the war eh :D :D  desert storm 1 mind

not sure if the system was round in those days or not, saw load of different systems being used, but cant remember if it as min till or not to be honest, always seem to remember all the imediate neighbours ploughing,

[graham]

i think in are day sean it was direct drilling that seemed to be about the same as min till to me but not sure will get told i expect

[ploughmaster]

A subsoiler should help aerate soil which air will soon help soil condition and will not destroy worm populations like a plough.

There is a wealth of scientifically backed up evidence that says that subsoiling is nearly as damaging as a plough.  Anything which involves substantial disturbance such as caused by subsoiler 'heave' will be very negative to soil life. Where worm populations are allowed to build up, it is they who tunnel the soil and allow the aeration to take place.  If you are correctly tackled and take care with the land, the kind of compaction that requires deep soil loosening with a subsoiler will not happen in the first place. 

anyone that use's a plough to remove any pans is a twonk and there operators need teaching as need to vary depths a little every year so don't get a pan!

.... we personally find the worst 'pans' are on fields that have been ploughed we have plough pans at ploughing depth' date='[/quote']

Sounds to me as though perhaps it might be your ploughman who is the 'twonk'   

Direct drilling is effectively 'no-till', as there is no prior soil moving operation performed; the seed being drilled straight into the aftermath of the preceding crop  . 

[archbarch]

this scientific evidence coming from the same (experts) that i have had the pleasure in working with, what fun that was.

If anyone sets a slug trap to determine slug populations before the application of a molluscicide they would generally find more dead worms than slugs, thats always been my observation.

[Pingu]

I'm just saying what I've learnt and what me and my bosses have discovered we have never had any troubles with subsoiling and worms only doing it in conditions that allow!  It wouldn't have been possible for us to do anything in last 4 seasons if we hadn't got on at times combine and everything sat still so got to get it done we try and help by running tracks and everything on large tyres but got to decide to get on and do what's best for yields and everything overall

And before you blame the ploughing the pan is caused by smear of point and wing on some of our ground