Big Al Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Has anyone else seen out and about along the way about fair trade this and fair trade that. Something to do with workers and/or producers in parts of the world getting a fair price for their produce. The terms ethical and organic are labels which spring to mind. Does anyone know if there is any sort of fair trade parallel regarding producing farm models in different parts of the world. I mean we all like to get great models and not have to pay astronomic sums for them. Does anyone know much about how farm models are produced or what sorts of wages or working conditions for the workers? I'm curious to know if anyone knows much about it? Are there fair trade farm models available anywhere in the World? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Big Al I think we may need to change your name to Doug... you are doing a lot of digging in the same subject around a few similar topics. Is there something you want to get off your chest old chap Forgive me if I am wrong... but I sense an undercurrent running through your recent posts asking questions about model production. I find the best way to get a straight answer is to ask a straight question really. If your question is solely about production and fair trade then I can answer with a limited knowledge. Being a fruiterer by profession I am aware of the growing movement towards fairtrade, organic and most importantly, provenance ( and sustainment) Although this principal can be applied very well to the FMCG sector I can't see it ever jumping the void to the production of toys really. Don't get me wrong... I'd love to see UK manufactured items and would happily pay the price. But when China (and more lately some of the old Eastern Block countries) are capable and willing to produce for a fraction of the price that we can ourselves then we are stuck in that supply chain. Lets not forget that shipping remains the cheapest and most environmentally friendly method of transport for bulk goods available to man today. To this end the argument against emissions etc has little or no consequence/weighting in this issue. Obviously just my ten penneth and by no mean gospel.. although anyone who disagrees with me gets a nipple cripple and 10 minutes on the FTF naughty step Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massey Boys Mum Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Looking at http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/ will help you. I don't think anyone could be against the principles behind fairtrade? However, on this forum everyone is able to give their viewpoint so I will wait and see. Have you got your own business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexMF Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I don't understand what your agenda is....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archbarch Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 im ok with the principles behind fair trade, however people are happy to buy food and clothes that are fair trade but when it comes to banking or electrical goods they dont care, this is just my opinion of course!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I personally can't be overly ar*ed with this whole fair trade thing.... we're applying western standards of living to cultures which either haven't developed in the way we have or don't want to, typical of the west, imposing our way of thinking on everyone else.... We can all be high and mighty about fair trade but what about the folk who work in these 'sweat shops' [they aren't nice by our standards but they proliferate as they do because they are acceptable in those countries] who end up unable to feed their families because their employers now can't compete because of the boom in fair trade and falling demand for 'sweat shop' goods....? Sure, it would be nice to see a bush farmer in Africa with a microwave and a crew cab pickup to drive his family round in and fresh milk in the fridge and ready meals and designer clothes and plasma screens and holidays and health insurance and.... and.... but that's ridiculous.... Unfortunately, despite what the left leaning do-gooders will tell us, and Google maps and TV and sat nav and jet transport make us think, the world IS STILL a big place and there are many different cultures and many different standards of living.... What's to say that the way we live is right? I know we know it's better, more comfortable, safer, healthier, but look how quickly it can crumble when a few bankers do their sums wrong.... I'm capitalist through and through, I love it, but I don't believe that the whole world can be, there has to be a hierarchy, the trick to maintaining the balance is making sure everyone is comfortable [ish] with their lot. We have plenty of fair trade issues we should deal with at home in my opinion, not least the supermarkets and almost complete lack of manufacturing in this country. We're reliant on other countries, and cultures, to sate our desire for electrical crap and iron on labels on mediochre clothes.... even food with our newly discovered 'sophisticated tastes'.... Fair trade, so far as I can see, is a nice idea but when it's looked back on by future generations, could just as likely be seen as totally unworkable as an unmitigated success...? Who can tell..? I'm reserving judgement for now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massey Boys Mum Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Interesting stuff Simon. The worst thing about capitalism is that it is not sustainable for the long term - resources are dwindling and without them we have nothing. Fair trade in my view is a good ideal to work towards. Some things are bigger than the individual and trade is one - but with fair trade at least we can chose to have a say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archbarch Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 fair trade is better than throwing money and handouts to solve problems, as for Africa well to me thats corrupt governments Zimbabwe is a classic example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nashmach Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Interesting stuff Simon. The worst thing about capitalism is that it is not sustainable for the long term - resources are dwindling and without them we have nothing. Fair trade in my view is a good ideal to work towards. Some things are bigger than the individual and trade is one - but with fair trade at least we can chose to have a say? Don't see your point there. Some resources MAY be dwindling but that gives capitalists opportunities to come up with alternatives - green energy is a good example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massey Boys Mum Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Don't see your point there. Some resources MAY be dwindling but that gives capitalists opportunities to come up with alternatives - green energy is a good example. Personally I think that essential services should be available to everyone in a civilised society. Capitalism is a lot for a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deere-est Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 That's only what we determine as a civilised society though. Simon, very true words there. Fairtrade won't be covering farm wages here and the prices our hard working nation will get told what they will sell for by the buyer. Until it does, it's like the organic and gm arguments. The curators don't give a hoot either way, what they see is a marketing opportunity and a section of the population so deluded they take it in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Those who are against, or have little time for, fair trade would most likely think differently if you were a downtrodden worker growing (say) fruit and your child was sick and required vital medical care you could not afford. Taking the word in it's literal form... FAIR and TRADE... they can (and do) work together. I'd hate to think of a banana farmers child dying becuase the supermarkets had used their buying power to screw him into the floor so far he didn't have the money to feed and look after his children properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 This seem a bit of a "trigger thread", I hope it does not spin out of control..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 This seem a bit of a "trigger thread", I hope it does not spin out of control..... I am hoping we can all air our views in a responsible and adult manner Pops... So ner... Pwwwttthhhhhhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I am hoping we can all air our views in a responsible and adult manner Pops... So ner... Pwwwttthhhhhhh I want to see that too...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Those who are against, or have little time for, fair trade would most likely think differently if you were a downtrodden worker growing (say) fruit and your child was sick and required vital medical care you could not afford. Taking the word in it's literal form... FAIR and TRADE... they can (and do) work together. I'd hate to think of a banana farmers child dying becuase the supermarkets had used their buying power to screw him into the floor so far he didn't have the money to feed and look after his children properly. We've ended up on divergent paths now I think Marky, a farmer in the bush - and I perhaps used that example unwisely previously - is far removed from a factory in the far east knocking out toy tractors, which is what the thread was initially debating. So while I wholeheartedly agree that we should pay a fair price to the producers of everything from bananas in Africa to wheat in the Fens, mass production of 'luxury items' is a different kettle of exotic fruit.... These items are produced in the way which fits with the standard to which the culture in question has developed thus far and so 'fair trade' and 'civilisation' are very subjective and it should be remembered that we were in their position not so very long ago..... and look where we got to all by ourselves... ish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Oh I see... fair point Simon... I wasn't aiming my comment at you in a singular sense either mate... it was more of a generalisation really... but I do take your point on-board that luxuary items are far removed from the production/supply chain of 'essential goods' such as foodstuffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Oh I see... fair point Simon... I wasn't aiming my comment at you in a singular sense either mate... it was more of a generalisation really... but I do take your point on-board that luxuary items are far removed from the production/supply chain of 'essential goods' such as foodstuffs Of course, none even considered taken anyway.... and I agree with you completely, just thought I'd better steer it back to the original question after I so deftly confused the issue earlier on with talk of microwaves and bananas.... :laugh: It's a fascinating topic though.... it can all be brought back to Britains in a round about sort of way.... would we really pay 60 quid for a Britains tractor of the same standard as it is now, just to have it manufactured in the UK, that which is being used as the benchmark for a 'civilised society'...? I honestly doubt it, I certainly wouldn't... maybe UH / Wiking quality I'd consider it but I surely wouldn't buy enough [nor I imagine would anyone else] to make the business of making them here viable or profitable.... \ So, what we deem as the acceptable standard of living would create something of a paradox.... if everyone had our standard of living, everyone would need to be able to acquire the sort of 'luxury goods' we aspire to, in our case toy tractors... [just step back a minute and read that again and see how mildly ridiculous these topics sound together... ] and they would need to be available at an easily attainable price, however that price is not compatible with manufacturing them at a viable cost associated with labour rates in our 'civilised society', so the retail prices skyrocket exponentially, creating an uber capitalist state where there is the same spread of wealth, just with numbers which are so much higher, and ultimately, everyone is in the same situation as they are now.... I'm going for a lie down.... \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leakeyvale Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I have been reading this topic with interest and have to agree with Simon's various comments. There are a few small manufacturers of models left in the UK (no farm models that I know of) and they are already expensive despite being produced in-house using out-workers to do the finish. These manufacturers do not have the volume of sales of the big players. The question is whether "fair trade" could be applied to these as the outworkers don't get a lot for their efforts as they are paid piecework rates which do not reflect in any way, shape or form, the amount of time spent. Most do it as a hobby which gives them a bit of "pin money". This is certainly true of a friend of mine who paints the masters of military figures for peanuts. He just enjoys doing it. The point of all this is if there was a "fair trade" or an employment issue where minimum wages was the requirement the cost of these models would be phenomenal; there would be fewer and fewer sales and production would probably come to a grinding halt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Thanks Sue!!!! I'm not a right wing fat cat capitalist! Honestly!! \ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leakeyvale Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Thanks Sue!!!! I'm not a right wing fat cat capitalist! Honestly!! \ Who said you were? Not Jo, surely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Who said you were? Not Jo, surely I did sort of feel like America cornered in the playground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexMF Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 and what is wrong with capitalism? it works far better than communism, when was the last time Cuba topped the charts economically, with a planned economy, everyone wants to live in North Korea and China because of their excellent standards of living and human rights views....not. since when did capitalism in the UK abandon the unfortunate, I would say our laissez faire economic policy was one of the most fair in the world... as far as capitalism being unsustainable as it relies on finite resources, well... research into green energy is going to take a lot of £, which a capitalist economy has..... as for fairtrade, I don't understand how it will benefit those who live in the UK and therefore have higher wages anyway?! maybe i'm missing the point, but oh well oh and i am a right wing (thin) capitalist, you show me the national altruism, i'll show you the communism, comrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archbarch Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 when it comes to manufacturing China and India dont actually see themselves as (3rd world) someone assembling UH models in a factory is probably very high up the social ladder in China. for that reason i dont think you can apply fair trade to manufacturing?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massey Boys Mum Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Who said you were? Not Jo, surely Quite right Sue - I never said fat! And Simon, this is not a personal attack - it's a chat about an interesting subject! And my question remains - Big Al, do you have your own business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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