Fair Trade Farm Models

[Big Al]

The answer is maybe..maybe someday. That's an insignificant matter here. I popped on this topic to see what other like minded, ie model tractor fans think of how things are. I am concerned at the continous dwindling away of the manufacturing base on these islands. What is going to crank the motor of our economy back into life if there is not locally controlled manufacturing. The bubble of the financial institutions has been well and truly exposed for what it was... a load of huff and puff with gains for a few and tough luck for the many ordinary people. Can we continue to send more money out of our economy than comes in?

I for one would not expect anyone to pay over the odds for their model tractors. Yes a Universal Hobbies model has more going for it than the current RC2 Britains models in terms of detail and price. But they are different markets are they not. Britains aimed at for play and UH for display.  Having said this a SIKU tractor is probably better for play than a RC2 Britains model.

Perhaps it is a tragedy of British manufacturing that a failure to update, keep abreast of the competition and be tuned in to what the home market actually wanted  has brought us to the position now of where we don't do a lot really....ARM excepted. 

If we surrender the ability to create, innovate and produce locally where will the opportunities come from for the many  people in our society who could and would like to play their part. Where local control is lost then what happens. Is it really better value to produce Massey Fergusons in France than at Coventry? Will our chocolate be any better with cheese producers in charge of the production?

I wholeheartedly endorse our local model tractor manufacturers. If we do not support them.. just the same as our corner shops and post offices, then we may very well run the risk of losing them.

Thanks everyone for the interesting chat and good luck.

[ihatepoundland]

I support the idea of free trade but I don't think that Fair Trade TM is fair at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3326576/Fairtrade-fails-to-tackle-poverty-report-says.html

[Simon]

I agree completely Al, the biggest problem in this country is the lack of tangible output, we've become an economy built entirely on service industries. Our utility companies are foreign owned, our manufacturing companies are foreign owned, our food companies are foreign owned. And this isn't nationalistic paranoia. There are no incentives to own or produce anything here.

I heard news today that Land Rover production may be shipped to India - the native country of the new owners - once the 2012 factory emmissions laws come into force. How can we allow this to happen?! Because we will... Only in the UK can we allow some half wit faceless European beurocrat to wipe out thousands of jobs and export income through a stroke of his immaculate Mont Blanc fountain pen in his multi million pound office on a different continent.....

I was a guest of Land Rover at Gaydon recently and I am baffled as to why the country isn't supporting Land Rover wholeheartedly. They have a fantastic range of vehicles now, there is not a pup in the range and every one is best in class by a country mile. They export 75% of their production, their factories are carbon neutral [admittedly via offsetting principally] and, by the same method, even their vehicles are carbon neutral up to 45'000 miles. And yet the government imposes ridiculous levels of road tax on them, tax fuel so heavily that few can afford to run them while the mass media and general public slander them as 'gas guzzling chelsea tractors'.... What they should be doing is offering favourable business rates to JLR and perhaps lower VAT on sale prices to encourage people to 'buy British' and support the thousands of people who work there and the massive contribution JLR makes to the UK economy.

Land Rover are a shining example of what can be achieved in this country if we put our minds to it, and yet the government and average Joe [no offence to anyone who either classes themself as average or is called Joe!] seem incapable of grasping this fact. I will unlikely buy another BMW when it comes to change, I will buy something from the JLR stable, whether that be a Jag car or a Land Rover.

We need to vote with our feet and make these things happen. We must surely all have noticed how the vocal minority [granted, with nothing to do] can shout loudly and get what they want done [see hunting ban, smoking ban, ban on smacking, various gov't quangos]...? There must be a way that the rest of us who fund these morons can actually force a culture shift for the good of the country?

Support local manufacturing, encourage friends and family to adapt their tastes to suit British produced goods & food? We need fair trade, but as far as I can see we need to force a bit of fair trade on our own economy before we worry about the other side of the world, or it won't be far into the near future before our economy is totally outsripped by these 'thirld world' countries that the bleeding heart liberals are so desperately trying to drag up to our own half cocked standards...  \

And Cadbury's, my god, talk about short termist greed... the shareholders should be hanging their heads in shame, and Peter Mandelson's home address should be given to all those workers whom he shafted by failing to gain a guarantee on jobs before he allowed the takeover to go through....

Who wants to start taking bets on how long it will be before it goes the same way as Terry's of York...? And the craziest thing?! Kraft are in financially worse shape than Cadbury's. They've borrowed millions from a BRITISH BANK [let's not forget we've just bailed most of them out] to buy one of our best known brands... So this is what will happen... Kraft will quietly scale back production in Birmingham [etc] before closing it for good, selling off the Bournville site [ripe for redevelopment, that will pay for the purchase of the company] and they've got one of the world's best known brands for nothing, mass producing carbon copies of other Kraft products in different wrapping on the same line somewhere else, and it won't be the UK...    When will we learn... when we're all living in transit camps accepting aid from China 

[archbarch]

Simon will you be standing in the next election?

The simple answer is there arent enough doers in the UK, we dont make Europe work to our terms the country needs leadership.

[Massey Boys Mum]

Simon - you are entitled to your opinions but I think it's very wrong to refer to people that you judge to be in disagreement with yourself as 'morons'.

One of the problems is that people feel that their vote doesn't count for much in this country - and one of the results of this can be apathy, because folks feel powerless.

Going back in time, we have always traded with other countries, and treating people fairly and with respect, whoever they are, should underpin all of our trade. That's the only thing that gives us the right to take the moral highground.

[Big Al]

Simon.

You are saying what many people are thinking. The people in power are making decisions which are not to the benefit of the indigenous people. We vote for them and expect them to represent our best interests. The expenses scandal is symptomatic of the rot in contemporary British politics. Where did the best interests of  local people get dumped with the car scrappage scheme. Did that do anything for local manufacturing? Why was it available for cars from anywhere? It would have been partially palatable if the scheme had placed an emphasis on vehicles which had a significant local input .. even if they were made in Europe. If you have no seed you can't sow in your own field.. bingo.. no harvest. I have yet to encounter anyone who has had a rich harvest from whatever blows their direction from over the hedge. We are effectively in an economic Dunkirk.

[Marmitemania]

I agree completely Al, the biggest problem in this country is the lack of tangible output, we've become an economy built entirely on service industries. Our utility companies are foreign owned, our manufacturing companies are foreign owned, our food companies are foreign owned. And this isn't nationalistic paranoia. There are no incentives to own or produce anything here.

I heard news today that Land Rover production may be shipped to India - the native country of the new owners - once the 2012 factory emmissions laws come into force. How can we allow this to happen?! Because we will... Only in the UK can we allow some half wit faceless European beurocrat to wipe out thousands of jobs and export income through a stroke of his immaculate Mont Blanc fountain pen in his multi million pound office on a different continent.....

I was a guest of Land Rover at Gaydon recently and I am baffled as to why the country isn't supporting Land Rover wholeheartedly. They have a fantastic range of vehicles now, there is not a pup in the range and every one is best in class by a country mile. They export 75% of their production, their factories are carbon neutral [admittedly via offsetting principally] and, by the same method, even their vehicles are carbon neutral up to 45'000 miles. And yet the government imposes ridiculous levels of road tax on them, tax fuel so heavily that few can afford to run them while the mass media and general public slander them as 'gas guzzling chelsea tractors'.... What they should be doing is offering favourable business rates to JLR and perhaps lower VAT on sale prices to encourage people to 'buy British' and support the thousands of people who work there and the massive contribution JLR makes to the UK economy.

Land Rover are a shining example of what can be achieved in this country if we put our minds to it, and yet the government and average Joe [no offence to anyone who either classes themself as average or is called Joe!] seem incapable of grasping this fact. I will unlikely buy another BMW when it comes to change, I will buy something from the JLR stable, whether that be a Jag car or a Land Rover.

We need to vote with our feet and make these things happen. We must surely all have noticed how the vocal minority [granted, with nothing to do] can shout loudly and get what they want done [see hunting ban, smoking ban, ban on smacking, various gov't quangos]...? There must be a way that the rest of us who fund these morons can actually force a culture shift for the good of the country?

Support local manufacturing, encourage friends and family to adapt their tastes to suit British produced goods & food? We need fair trade, but as far as I can see we need to force a bit of fair trade on our own economy before we worry about the other side of the world, or it won't be far into the near future before our economy is totally outsripped by these 'thirld world' countries that the bleeding heart liberals are so desperately trying to drag up to our own half cocked standards...  \

And Cadbury's, my god, talk about short termist greed... the shareholders should be hanging their heads in shame, and Peter Mandelson's home address should be given to all those workers whom he shafted by failing to gain a guarantee on jobs before he allowed the takeover to go through....

Who wants to start taking bets on how long it will be before it goes the same way as Terry's of York...? And the craziest thing?! Kraft are in financially worse shape than Cadbury's. They've borrowed millions from a BRITISH BANK [let's not forget we've just bailed most of them out] to buy one of our best known brands... So this is what will happen... Kraft will quietly scale back production in Birmingham [etc] before closing it for good, selling off the Bournville site [ripe for redevelopment, that will pay for the purchase of the company] and they've got one of the world's best known brands for nothing, mass producing carbon copies of other Kraft products in different wrapping on the same line somewhere else, and it won't be the UK...    When will we learn... when we're all living in transit camps accepting aid from China.

I could add a lot more to this and completly agree with every point, we need to support this country OUR OWN COUNTRY before we prop up everyone else, I have always brought and always will when possible only purchase products made in England, My fridge, dishwasher, washing machine, sofa, fireplace, bed, both cars, even the tyres on the cars, all made in England most of our furniture addmitedly very expensive IE Ercol sideboard Olney galleries table, all made in England. There is no excuse to buy foriegn items when you can buy British, you dont see the German police force driving around in Jaguars, so why are we using BMW's, I read a very favourable report on the new Jaguar XF's  suitability as a police car, so why is our force not driving around in them, probably because some bean counter said they will cost £20 a year more to run > , never mind the thousands out of jobs when the company goes under because of a lack of support. Just remember yes Im all for helping poorer countrys who have no means to help themselves, but what we should think of is that knowone will ever help us in our hour of need, we cant even help ourselves. Rant over and sorry if I have offended anyone.

[Marmitemania]

I don't know what I have done with my last post, I seem to have made the whole thing a quote, my tupence worth is the last paragraph, starting with I could add a lot more..........

[Lord Ferguson]

I don't know what I have done with my last post, I seem to have made the whole thing a quote, my tupence worth is the last paragraph, starting with I could add a lot more..........

sorted.... no problem.. you just replied before the last quote in brackets

[Deere-est]

Sorted, James.

[Deere-est]

Jinx, Mark!!  :laugh:

[Marmitemania]

Thanks MARKY-DEERE-EST (get it)   I can make a mess of anything when Im trying to put a serious point across

[Lord Ferguson]

Thanks MARKY-DEERE-EST (get it)   I can make a mess of anything when Im trying to put a serious point across

:D  - no problem... darling

[Simon]

Simon - you are entitled to your opinions but I think it's very wrong to refer to people that you judge to be in disagreement with yourself as 'morons'.

One of the problems is that people feel that their vote doesn't count for much in this country - and one of the results of this can be apathy, because folks feel powerless.

Going back in time, we have always traded with other countries, and treating people fairly and with respect, whoever they are, should underpin all of our trade. That's the only thing that gives us the right to take the moral highground.

Point taken Jo, but if people could see beyond their own petty grievances and face up to their wider responsibilities on their doorstep then we wouldn't get so frustrated by it. Hunting ban? Prejudiced and unnecessary and no benefit to anyone. Ban on capital punishment? A weak government using pointless legislation to attempt to fool us into believing they were doing something about a real problem which they didn't have the balls to really tackle. The list goes on....

A bunch of whinging Brummies who struggled to motivate themselves to put in more than 60% effort into a day's work and hence, in many eyes, are the architects of their own misfortune, will never tug at the heart stings like a wilderness awash with African orphans swarmed in flies and suffering from kwashiorkor.... but unless we put our workforce first, no matter how hard it may be to reconcile their neediness over that of others, then there will be no way for us to give aid anyway.... We've got to get our own shop in order before we go sorting out everyone else's..... go back a few decades and our shop was good, but 12 years of socialist misrule has set us back further than I think we realise.... I think many people are burying their head in the sand or labouring under an innocent misapprehension that we are a superpower... we're just not anymore, not by a long chalk...

The government should stop caving in under their simpering desire to please Europe - or, more likely, to secure highly paid careers for their own personal gain following their miserable domestic political careers - and grow some sprouts and put the UK first. We produce enough in this country to provide our services with vehicles, our health service with beds and medical equipment, our populace with food, even satisfy our insatiable desire for electronic gizmos and widgets.... we should have a booming economy.... So why aren't we...? 

[Marmitemania]

Simon me and you are definitly preaching from the same book!!!!

Point taken Jo, but if people could see beyond their own petty grievances and face up to their wider responsibilities on their doorstep then we wouldn't get so frustrated by it. Hunting ban? Prejudiced and unnecessary and no benefit to anyone. Ban on capital punishment? A weak government using pointless legislation to attempt to fool us into believing they were doing something about a real problem which they didn't have the balls to really tackle. The list goes on....

A bunch of whinging Brummies who struggled to motivate themselves to put in more than 60% effort into a day's work and hence, in many eyes, are the architects of their own misfortune, will never tug at the heart stings like a wilderness awash with African orphans swarmed in flies and suffering from kwashiorkor.... but unless we put our workforce first, no matter how hard it may be to reconcile their neediness over that of others, then there will be no way for us to give aid anyway.... We've got to get our own shop in order before we go sorting out everyone else's..... go back a few decades and our shop was good, but 12 years of socialist misrule has set us back further than I think we realise.... I think many people are burying their head in the sand or labouring under an innocent misapprehension that we are a superpower... we're just not anymore, not by a long chalk...

The government should stop caving in under their simpering desire to please Europe - or, more likely, to secure highly paid careers for their own personal gain following their miserable domestic political careers - and grow some sprouts and put the UK first. We produce enough in this country to provide our services with vehicles, our health service with beds and medical equipment, our populace with food, even satisfy our insatiable desire for electronic gizmos and widgets.... we should have a booming economy.... So why aren't we...? 

[Simon]

Simon me and you are definitly preaching from the same book!!!!

Surely we can't be the only ones either?  \   

Maybe we should stop working our nuts off to pay our taxes now and take up politics instead.... got two chances I suppose!!!     

[Massey Boys Mum]

Simon - first of all I must just say that the opportunity to have freedom of speech is something precious. You and I both have that and thank god eh? And, we can talk in this way because we both have something in common which is a good place to start (I have not forgotten that this is a love of the land, or farming related things - just in case anyone else is following this thread!)

I have never agreed with fox hunting. I hate it. And, I feel that I am informed enough to make a rational decision on this having followed the hunt for many years. My reasons are for another topic maybe. However, I too had a real dilemma when it was banned. I had to search my soul, but my conclusion was that the ban was heavy handed and inappropriate. Many things should be banned perhaps, but this decision was not reasonable.

What I find so difficult about your argument is that you put people into categories with no basis. We must always have compassion and just because I say that does not make me weak. I too support local enterprise. Ask anyone who knows me. I will try to make informed decisions about buying goods or services if I can. And, I do remember living under a conservative government. My council tax (then called poll tax) trebling overnight with no warning. We had no means to pay this and it meant a court appearance for me, with little understanding from the authorities of the stress this caused to my family. Socialism is not perfect but it has given us positives as well as negatives.

Where you and I agree is that we can all make a difference. Where we disagree, is that I am not prepared to accept that we can stand back and let people starve because of our own greed. Where on earth do you draw the line between who you will help and who you will not?

Obviously the biggest question still remains: who exactly is Big Al, how old is he and where does he live? We don't even know what tractors he likes.

[Marmitemania]

I dont think I could be a politician as I seem to find it almost imposssible to lie about anything, also if we became politicians eventually we would secome to coruption as coruption always comes with power.

Surely we can't be the only ones either?  \   

Maybe we should stop working our nuts off to pay our taxes now and take up politics instead.... got two chances I suppose!!!     

[Marmitemania]

Sometimes my spelling is appaling.

[Simon]

I see exactly where you are coming from Jo, we differ in that I put my kids first, my country second and if there's anything else for the rest of the world then maybe them next... [not that you don't put your kids first    We differ in that I seem genetically incapable of intercontinental compassion on a daily - even occasional - basis...  \ ]

There are many moral and abstract arguments for and against fair trade, international aid etc etc, and those who devote their lives to it are far more noble than I. However.....

Things we should remember though are:

1. The population is expanding at a rate beyond that which the planet can realistically sustain.

2. There is little or no natural selection anymore, we are at the top of the food chain, science allows us to far outlive our alotted time, we can predict natural disasters... [although this information only seems to be acted on in 'the developed world' and that warrants its own debate] we want to be infallible and invicible and all the while wonder why the world is changing? It's adapting to survive, screw us lot!

3. Tsunamis, earthquakes, volcanos, floods, drought, famine, plague... these are all natures way of controlling the population, maintaining the natural and delicate balance of her ecosystem... And yet we feel it our right - or duty - to try to control them...

4. All these things are nasty, but in the words of, I believe, Elton John pretending to be a lion... it's the circle of life... It's a necessary evil, the few sometimes need to suffer for the many. If it's me who is due to cop it because mother nature says so then so be it..... I'm fortunate I live where I do - a temperate climate with a fairly stable social structure so it's unlikely a volcano or famine will get me, I'm more likely to leave the road on a greasy bend but we all live with risk...

We're spoilt now, we can turn things on and turn things off whenever we like, we can see starving kids on TV in the comfort of our own home with a bottle of Chilean Merlot in one hand and 'save them' with the other by tapping our credit card details into our laptop. We are bombarded with requests for cash to save polar bears, giant pandas, children, old houses, coastline, parks, dogs, cats, birds, lions, tigers... these things don't need our money - it's the do good-ers who make themselves feel better by devoting their life to lifting money off people through guilt inducing images and emotional instrumental music who need the money, to fund their travel and TV advertising - no, the polar bears just want us to p*ss off, the cats just want to be left alone to breed in peace and quiet, the coastline will live or die by mother natures grand plan...

I worry for my kids' future, but not in a global catastrophe way, there is no controlling that... I worry that the 'civilisation' we have spent so long building will continue to decline and erode to nothing, that they won't be able to experience the things our greatest engineers and scientists have spent their lives developing, because as a country we collapse and end up like Africa but without the clement weather...

Going back to the banning thing, the fact that you recognise that the manner in which the government banned hunting was inappropriate is good enough for me, I respect your opinion on hunting, we are all entitled to our own views. I don't hunt, I used to when I was a child, but all the same I wouldn't force my opinion on anyone. Infact, I don't recall - in all the debates I've had about hunting -, the pro-hunting lobby ever forcing the good things about hunting down the anti's necks, only ever that the ban was unjust. Granted you can have your opinions but it doesn't actually or directly affect anyone so did the government feel it necessary to become involved with something they know little [or nothing] about?

In just the same vein as the hunting ban and the statement that you hate it, I have my own two hates. In fact, I bet my feelings far exceed the strength of feeling you have for hunting, and I bet I could give more valid reasons for banning my 2 hates than you could hunting... However, I can avoid these things [not as easily as an anti can avoid hunting but as they offend me I make the effort] and so I don't jump up and down and lobby government...

Can you guess what they are?

FOOTBALL!

1. Causes unecessary social tension and violence

2. Financially the rewards are grossly disproportionate to the contribution of everyone involved

3. It sets a bad example to potential plumbers, bricklayers, productionline workers, kids think that they can all have Bentleys and air head page 3 model girlfriends and this prevents them from following a proper career path

4. More people have been killed or injured as a result of football than anything else after religion [war gets lumped into religion because that's inevitably what they come down to]

5. Football costs the country millions in lost work time, either through sickies to watch matches, organised watching of big matches at work or sickies as a result of hangovers or thrashings after matches...

I can go on but I'll upset the football fans...

And obviously, RELIGION, for  broadly similar reasons as above, more people have died, and continue to die, as a result of religion. I firmly believe that the world would genuinely be a better place if religion had never been invented [or if you're religious, if God, or for those who don't follow our God and therefore don't have the right to capitalisation, gods, didn't exist] and we would all be far more tolerant and helpful and everything, right down to the single global economy, would be flourishing.... that's one for an alternate dimension though.... it's getting late, I think I need a sleep....

A bit OT but rant complete.... Where were we? Fair trade, yes, a modern myth in this generation  where the developed world feels the need to second guess and 'save' everything.... it's unsustainable, something will have to give or it's going to be standing room only on this planet.... unfortunately horrid things happen to some people, it's nature. The fact that satellite TV has been invented and we can now all see it on 42inches of widescreen doesn't mean we necessarily need to change it, maybe just be compassionate about it and appreciate how lucky we are....

Sometimes my spelling is appaling.

2 L's in appalling...!   

[Massey Boys Mum]

Thanks Simon.

Thanks for sharing your views. I was upset that you told me your two hates. I wanted to guess but I could not resist scrolling down .....

I am appalled that you do not share my interest in the reality of Big Al though?!!! I think he could be either:

a)Kevin Keegan

Gordon Brown

c) Rick

What do you reckon? Got to go to bed and wake up refreshed for work, so good-night.

PS My kids come first but I want them to think about stuff.

PPS Religion is based on good ideas - so, lets save that debate for another day!

[Deere-est]

Simon.... your latest posts have been terrific.

Anytime I need my view put across in a way I cannot write, I'll be asking you to do it.

Fair trade, in it's more liberal trade.

Farmer X has good year selling spuds. £3.00/25kg bag in the trade. Trader buys and then sells them to farm shop for £5.00/bag. Farm shop retails at £7/bag.

Farmer X has bad year selling spuds. £2.00/25kg bag in the trade. Trader buys and then sells them to farm shop for £5.00/bag. Farm shop retails at £7.00.

Farmer grows (labour, machinery, chemical, time, bags) potatos for £3/bag. (in the good year)

Trader collects for £3/bag and delivers to shop for £5/bag - £2 more.

Shop unloads for £5/bag and sells - £2 more.

Eygpt grow potato's in the desert, irrigated by water wells with chemicals added. Pack and ship to UK for sale in our own supermarkets.

Where is the trade actually fair in any of the above? A simple example but it is late!!

[Simon]

Precisely Tris, and that's no-ones fault but our own. There is no good reason for us needing perfectly shaped produce 12 months of the year other than 'we want it'.... We all need to change our lifestyles to more accurately reflect what is available locally. Marky is probably the man to tell us what we should be eating and when with regards fruit and veg. THAT's real fair trade, creating an economy which can support itself in the basics and export the surplus to make some profit, and from that importing luxuries which are sold at a premium, hence creating the same economy in other countrues. It is also, by another name, capitalism..... fair trade doesn't have problems because we don't do it right, it's because many of the countries we try to fair trade with have deep rooted problems with corruption and we take it as our responsibility to put this right by implementing our notions of what constitutes fair trade on them.

You can't mess with other cultures.... look at it in its most basic form... a section of the muslim community don't like the way we do things, we didn't like it when the flew planes at us and blew us up. The west have a mistrust of muslims, we flew planes at them, it's for natural resources but ultimately it comes down to religious suspicion, who 'started it' is more or less irrelevant. We wouldn't like it if muslims came to our country and told us we had to slaughter our livestock in what we see as an inhumane way, same as they didn't like it when we went on the Crusades... The west needs to accept that the whole world isn't like us, some Africans still like eating each other, some countries think cows should be worshipped, not turned into burgers, we ARE all different, there is no such thing as an integrated multicultural society, there is a world, which is still big, full of people who believe different things and do things in different ways. I'm by no means a swampy, I still think the empire was a good thing, but you can't change cultures. We don't really like the idea of Sharia law coming into force in Britain, so why should we believe that other countries and cultures want us to implement our cultures and ways of doing things on them.... It reminds me of kids, always 'watching' what the other has and some interefering parent sticking their oar in and 'splitting things fairly'... leave them to it, the other kid probably didn't really want what the other had anyway, they were just bickering because they were bored... The world is not full of children, we are grown ups who can make our own decisions, in the same way as the labour government treat us all as too stupid to think for ourselves, we treat the rest of the world the same way, it's no wonder everyone gets cheesed off with the west....

Jo, my lack of interest in 'the real Al' is an accurate reflection of my endemic lack of interest in other people!      My interest in others stops at what affects me, so I'm interested in whether the flavour of the underwear worn by the trampy looking bloke in front of me in the queue is attracting all these flies, right through to whether Dwight D. Ewing Jnr the third, from the board of Kraft foods is thinking he wants to make a bigger bonus to buy himself that SRT10 for Christmas so decides to offload the Cadbury's Bournville site for development, leaving Sid from Brimingham unemployed so my hard earned tax pounds are spent paying for his Sky+ and DFS 4 year interest free 3 piece suite while he sits on his Bum unable to find a job because formerly British but now foreign owned companies have shipped all manufacturing out of this company destroying everyones chances of finding 'just something' to keep the wolf from the door! 

I dont think I could be a politician as I seem to find it almost imposssible to lie about anything, also if we became politicians eventually we would secome to coruption as coruption always comes with power.

I like to think I'd make an excellent dictator and wouldn't be the least bit corrupted by power....   

[Barry]

This thread is great, Simon talks rubbish though

Only joking, he's brighter than he looks!!!! 

[Simon]

This thread is great, Simon talks rubbish though

Only joking, he's brighter than he looks!!!! 

I was amazed to find you're brighter than you look too Bazza!