Topical discussion split from britains new 2010 catalogue

[ploughmaster]

Any reason they are dropping out so much stuff. Would be nice to wonder what Britains would have become if they didn't merge with RC2. Eventually UH and the other brands will push them out of the 32 scale market I think unless they up the game fast judging by the way UH is moving to the American market.

As seen RC are now doing the big farm to target a different market that the other competitors. Beg's the question of a gap for high quality scale model farm buildings in the market??

UH will have very little effect on Ertl/Britains core market, which is toys.

This will be even more pronounced in America where the regulations regarding toys are much tougher (a lot of the items in the 'Britains' catalogue would carry a 14+ age grade in the US, whereas they are 3+ in Europe; this is why Ertl issue basic 'shelf' editions over there).  The UH stuff is collector only, and I think a lot of North American collectors will find the 16th UH unacceptably flimsy compared to the kind of models they are used to.  32nd is still very small fry in the US (I think a high proportion of the Ertl US 32nd issues end up this side of the Atlantic ), so UH won't be making huge sales in that sector either.

Neither will they will have much effect on Britains/Ertl collector editions unless they acquire a general licence for John Deere, and I very much doubt that is likely to happen anytime soon!

As to what would have become of Britains if they had not been taken over by Ertl (it was not a merger!), you do not have to wonder;

We know exactly what was going to happen;

Britains Petite were rapidly running out of finances (i.e. nearly bust), and had fallen into the ownership of a French mining equipment manufacturer who were not in the slightest bit interested in toys. 

If Ertl had not bought Britains Petite, the company would have been closed down and the Britains Farm range would have ceased to exist (and the rights to the W Britain name would have gone to a US toy soldier manufacturer). This was what appeared to be almost a done deal at the time!

[MB Trac]

The argument remains futile however as Britains 32nd scale models have been pushed aside by the competition as is clear to see. Eventually with finances UH will target the big market i.e John Deere in America and have the ability to make models every bit as rugged as Ertl with almost guaranteed higher quality. At the rate theirt product base it is expanding it wont be long before it happens that they get a JD licence and John Deere who want top quality products will see the difference in quality immediately.

[ploughmaster]

The argument remains futile however as Britains 32nd scale models have been pushed aside by the competition as is clear to see. Eventually with finances UH will target the big market i.e John Deere in America and have the ability to make models every bit as rugged as Ertl with almost guaranteed higher quality. At the rate theirt product base it is expanding it wont be long before it happens that they get a JD licence and John Deere who want top quality products will see the difference in quality immediately.

I'm afraid you need to open your eyes and look at the real world!

Any pushing aside of Britains has been done almost entirely by Siku.  Nonetheless, I think you would probably find that if you examine the sales figures, Britains is still the runaway market leader!!  UH have no influence on the toy market. 

If you seriously think UH are going to get a JD licence just like that, you seriously misunderstand the licencing relationship that Ertl have with JD. 

It is also the case that the Ertl/JD relationship centres on 16th, and when you look at the quality and detail on Ertl's 16th JD production (particularly the Precision range), and then look at the number of new and different models Ertl produce for JD, I doubt if UH will ever come close to competing with them.

[MB Trac]

Corporate relationships center only around share holders and money not friendship. UH havn't targeted the toy market as yet, you think they cant see potential in this area? Have a wee look at their speed of expansion in the last 3 years. Huge growth rate in the market and business. Dont be expecting them to ignore where the biggest market is when the opportunity is right. They have only started to look at the american market and already got licences from one of the biggest players Agco. Plus their products are half the price of precision Ertl and of equal quality

Also the majority of Ertl models sold in the states are 1/64 and 1/16 or 1/50

http://www.3000toys.com/catalog/products.asp?clear=mfg&TYPE=FARM_TOYS&MFG=SCALE_MODELS&setup=

[ploughmaster]

Corporate relationships center only around share holders and money not friendship. UH havn't targeted the toy market as yet, you think they cant see potential in this area?  Dont be expecting them to ignore where the biggest market is when the opportunity is right. 

Which comment shows again that you do not understand the exclusive licencing deal which exists betwen Ertl and John Deere  

I honestly don't think UH see much potential in the 'toy' market at all - it would mean competing head-on, and on equal terms with the toymakers, which is what they have largely avoided by going for a market that had previuosly been the preserve of specialist model manufacturers.  UH saw them as an easy target.  Interestingly however, one or two toy makers appear to be starting to try and compete head on with UH).  The market that UH are aiming at are the 'easy' targets like DBP, Tyro, Autodrome et al.

Have a wee look at their speed of expansion in the last 3 years. Huge growth rate in the market and business.

Not difficult to achieve when someone else is paying the upfront development costs, and you only have to market the product (a very unfair advantage that I understand UH have over the other toy and model makers)

They have only started to look at the american market and already got licences from one of the biggest players Agco.

Pretty meaningless to be honest - pretty much all the major toy and model makers have licences for AGCo products (MF, Valtra, Fendt, Challenger).

Also the majority of Ertl models sold in the states are 1/64 and 1/16 or 1/50

This is precisely why Ertl have a stranglehold on the licence. 

Where do you get the impression that JD are missing out in 32nd scale??  Just take a look at the range of what Ertl produce every year.

Take a look at the Ertl John Deere catalogue, the range goes way beyond toy/model tractors in the scales you have mentioned.  Ertl would not willingly give up their exclusive licence because they have everything to lose.  Likewise, John Deere are highly unlikely to take the licence (or part of it) away from Ertl, because there is no one else able to supply the breadth and depth of toy ranges for them.

Plus their products are half the price of precision Ertl and of equal quality

Don't make me laugh. UH are flimsy and blown together compared with the precisions (and in 16th in particular, highly inaccurate!)

You can argue (and fantasise) all you like.  I can't see UH being granted a licence by JD any time soon (or indeed at all).

Note to Moderator: This is all getting rather a long way from the original topic - would these posts be better put into a seperate thread??

[abigail.c]

I havn't got 1 yet \

[Richard de Florennes]

wow, quite big discussions going on here, while I would expect (or rather hope for insteatd of knowing better) some news concerning Britains maybe addings some (nice) implements to their sad 2010 show.

Apparantly, the lack of any real heart-breaking news and many years of a dissappointing Britains makes emotions growing strong ... 

[MB Trac]

Agreed. The sad line up and poor quality. Ertl's "Exclusive" deal with John Deere as noted is exclusive to the point where there is currently no competition to the scale of Ertl. That will soon change. You pay a pricey sum for precision Ertl and their 32nd scale is relatively of poor quality when compared to UH, ROS, WEISE, etc etc etc.

The opinions of the majority on here pretty much say all that has to be said. Especially in the Britains new releases section

[ploughmaster]

...their 32nd scale is relatively of poor quality when compared to UH, ROS, WEISE, etc etc etc.

Ros is a valid comparison, but as has been repeatedly pointed out (but still some refuse to listen!) Ertl/Britains are primarily designed as a toy, and cannot be directly compared with the likes of UH and Weise which are designed as models.

Whilst the UH 32nds are undoubtedly very good models for their price, I would strongly argue that the Ertl precisions are of far better quality than either UH or Weise. 

On the toy front, only the recent releases from Ros acheive a higher standard for the similar price as the Britains. 

Wait and see what the new MF 7480 turns out like in the flesh. From the pictures we have seen, it looks almost as good as the UH 7499, and will be nearly half the price (and for the majority of 'toy' buyers, the price matters - they are not all wealthy farmers and can't afford Siku or UH type prices!)

to the point where there is currently no competition to the scale of Ertl. That will soon change

Dream on   

[MB Trac]

Ros is a valid comparison, but as has been repeatedly pointed out (but still some refuse to listen!) Ertl/Britains are primarily designed as a toy, and cannot be directly compared with the likes of UH and Weise which are designed as models.

Whilst the UH 32nds are undoubtedly very good models for their price, I would strongly argue that the Ertl precisions are of far better quality than either UH or Weise. 

On the toy front, only the recent releases from Ros acheive a higher standard for the similar price as the Britains. 

Wait and see what the new MF 7480 turns out like in the flesh. From the pictures we have seen, it looks almost as good as the UH 7499, and will be nearly half the price (and for the majority of 'toy' buyers, the price matters - they are not all wealthy farmers and can't afford Siku or UH type prices!)

Dream on   

Ros is a valid comparison, but as has been repeatedly pointed out (but still some refuse to listen!) Ertl/Britains are primarily designed as a toy.

If this is true then why are they producing the Massey 7480 to the quality if they are not in competition with UH or ROS?

[ploughmaster]

That's just twisting the argument  .  I do not understand why they are suddenly considered to be in competition with UH because they appear to have made a toy which also appears to be a good model.  It is still a toy, and it will sell for half the price of UH.

Siku, on the other hand, do appear to setting themselves up against UH from the appearence of their most recent releases (Siku are also nearer to the UH price bracket).  They won't be able to compete with UH on quantity, but could give them something to think about quality wise.

Incidentally, if Ertl and JD were to fall out over the 32nd licence (which is unlikely to happen this side of hell freezing), I would think that Siku would benefit from having their restricted licence extended, rather than any other toy/model maker getting it.

[MB Trac]

Britains just decided to up the anti on a whim?? It surely not twisting the argument. the fact remains Britains are loosing out to UH in the European market. Go into any toy shop - flooded with Britains (not selling!!) and go and take a look at UH new products flying off the shelves to collectors who once only bought Britains, UH in dealerships, and also selling to children.

The fact that they have put in so much effort to the new massey just proves the point. And the only reason Britains are cheaper is China and the quantity they make. UH have a factory in Hong Kong but their quantities are smaller and more detailed hence the price. Quantity V Price (Britains) Quality Vs price (UH)

[MDFord]

Incidentally, if Ertl and JD were to fall out over the 32nd licence (which is unlikely to happen this side of hell freezing), I would think that Siku would benefit from having their restricted licence extended, rather than any other toy/model maker getting it.

Whats the story with the Siku "licence" Ploughmaster.  Is it a JD Germany - Siku agreement, and how does the U.S. head office regard the arrangement ??

[Deere-est]

Mmmmm I think a lot of this argument is flawed by the comparisons being drawn between a toy maker and a model maker. I'm not aware of many toy shops selling UH, it is mainly Sulvanian Families and cheap far eastern produced action figures, robotic pets and all things with flashing lights and silly noises. Go into a dealer and most have a huge stock of Bruder for the farmers' children and UH etc for himself.

Britains have one main rival, Siku. Older ROS stuff could be considered to be in a similar market but since their reinvention I don't think the same applies now. UH, Weise, Wiking etc - different kettle of fish altogether.

Although, Imber's Fords are suprisingly well made given the level of detail and this is a ROS influenced venture too.

I am sure Britains will be back, just because they don't tell us what they are releasing in the next twelve months doesn't mean they are sat idle 

[Marmitemania]

My local toyshop in the next town stock lots of Britains its a toymaster but its a proper old fashioned toyshop, with trains, Scaleletrix, airfix kits and the like, it also stocks a very small selection of Bruder and Siku stuff, the Britains has pride of place, the first shelf you are confronted with when you enter the shop, ;D  and always a britains model or two in the window. The shop near the seafront in Skeggy always used to be my first port of call, but they have stopped stocking Britains now and only keep Siku, I don't go in there anymore. :'(

[Paul Palmer]

i think this is  now way off topic ,its supposed to be about the contents of the britains catalogue,not uh v britains or license aggrements

[Deere-est]

True, Paul. It did arise from a view of the 2010 catalogue, I'll split it. 

[Paul Palmer]

True, Paul. It did arise from a view of the 2010 catalogue, I'll split it. 

thanks tris

[AndyB]

Forgive me if I am typing out of turn but..........I have seen this subject disscussed so many times that surely we must be experts in disscussing it.........(yawn smiley)

Can I summarise.....

ERTL = toy maker

Britains = toy maker

Siku = toy maker

UH = collectors items

Please note the difference!!

[ploughmaster]

Whats the story with the Siku "licence" Ploughmaster.  Is it a JD Germany - Siku agreement, and how does the U.S. head office regard the arrangement ??

From what I recall being told by a (well known) retailer at the time, their story was that the Siku licence was granted by JD Europe (i.e. Germany) and that JD management in the States knew nothing about the Siku licence until it was a done deal, and I was told they were apparently not best pleased.  This should perhaps be regarded as hearsay, it not being the type of information that such companies would air in public [img alt=]http://www.farmtoysforum.com/forum/Smileys/default/wink.gif

I was under the impression that Siku can't directly import and market their JD toys into North America (may be our North American friends could confirm whether that is the case?). There may be further restrictions on what they can model because of possible conflicts with Ertl (not that Siku and Britains/Ertl compete directly - the difference in quality and price means that Siku and Britains don't really compete at the same level)

Britains have one main rival' date=' Siku. Older ROS stuff could be considered to be in a similar market but since their reinvention I don't think the same applies now. UH, Weise, Wiking etc - different kettle of fish altogether.

I would have said the opposite  [img alt=]http://www.farmtoysforum.com/forum/Smileys/default/laugh.gif

The price and quality difference between Britains and Siku (particularly recently) puts them somewhat apart in the marketplace. Siku are in a higher price bracket, and this reflects their quality, but for many toy buyers, they are too expensive, so Britains wins at the lower price end.

Some of the older Ros was pretty crap - metal casting, but the rest was all plastic (even the axles), and on occassions simply recoloured an existing tractor and put different decals on to produce a different make (Iseki redecalled as Ford 7840 for one). Some were fairly good models, but were not as robust as Britains were then.  Ros then changed to diecast bonnets and wire axles, but then disappeared from the market, until the name as recently resurrected (I think I am right in saying that the current 'new' Ros is not the same company as the old one?)

Judging from the standard of the 'New' Ros offerings so far, and the fact that they are similar (or lower) price than the equivalent Britains, I think they may represent the main threat to Britains in the future. They will need future releases of the calibre that the new 7480 appears to be to compete with the standard Ros has acheived with the recently released New Holland (regardless of what UH, Siku et al are doing [img alt=\]http://www.farmtoysforum.com/forum/Smileys/default/undecided.gif )