60 km/h tractors

[archbarch]

i dont drive a tractor anymore,all this RUBBISH about pressure at harvest? farmers being bankrupt?  GET BLOODY ORGANISED  

[ploughmaster]

... as often they'll never do larger distance's as longer then 40 miles (round-trip) from base and your not making any money full stop and having used properly specced safe kit as in dual line air brakes, abs, exhaust brakes, suspended axle + cab, front axle brakes at 50k and yes up to a all up weight of 35tons (off road) I could stop a hell of a lot faster then similar weighted artic.  I cant see why law cant be changed with tractor and trailer MOT's to say 32+ton and 50K,d plus the law is out of date full stop, if lorry's where still running by laws from 60years ago there'd be uproar!

I very much doubt you could stop 35 tonnes from 50kph any faster than a lorry could, regardless of the brakes/tyres etc you may fit - it's down to the laws of physics.

Whilst it is possible to equip a tractor for higher speeds legally, unfortunately for your argument there is currently no way to allow an agricultural tractor to draw a gross train weight of more than 24 390kg legally.  The problem is that they would effectively be an LGV at higher weights, and whilst lorries and the laws governing them have indeed advanced massively (particularly in the last 20 years), the design of tractors has not advanced by nearly as much. 

The simple fact is that to carry greater weight, a tractor would have to comply with all the same regulations regarding construction and use as lorries currently do - not simply brakes and suspension, tachographs and fuel, but would also have to have an annual MOT which for lorries means complying with Euro Five emissions rules.  At present agricultural tractors only comply with Tier Three (shortly rising to Tier Four), which is about equivalent to Euro One.  Currently the only agricultural 'tractor' that can comply is the Unimog. 

Even to use a Fastrac at train weights greater than 24 390kg, it would have to be registered as a 'locomotive' (ie. as a 'Heavy Haulage' unit) and would thus be limited to 30mph legal max speed, which is 10mph slower than it can legally go as a purely agricultural tractor.

Getting off the simple subject of speed limits a bit now, but the laws regarding haulage are very complex, and very few people in farming appreciate just how easy a time they have with the comparatively simple rules regarding tractors and trailers or implements on the road (and often don't seem to have the ability/intelligence/common sense to even cope with them).  Trying to get higher speed or weight limits for agricultural tractors is a massive can of worms - you really do not want to go there!  If the agricultural industry has any sense at all, it will keep its head down and keep within the existing regulations  http://www.farmtoysforum.com/forum/uploads/emoticons/default_wink.png' alt=';)'> .

Paulali - I will repeat: there is no contradiction.  A standard agricultural tractor is not adequately equipped (even with suspended front axles) to travel at high speed safely, and standard tractor/trailer braking systems are often barely adequate to stop even the maximum permissable gross trailer weight of 18 290kg (another weight limit most in farming are blissfully ignorant of!) safely at 20mph, let alone any faster. 

If the tractor trailer is suitably equipped to make it safe (brakes, tyres and suspension), then it can go faster.

Tyres - there's another one.  How many of you who regard it as OK to travel at 40kph plus have tyres on your tractor which are rated for such speeds - I would guess at 'not many' as high speed rated traction tyres are pretty crap gripwise in wet fields.  Safety again; non-high speed tyre failing at 40kph with 20 tonnes plus of trailer behind (ever seen a tractor leap a hedge??).

Any employer can be held up at a tribunal for trying to insist an employee breaks the law (or indeed for penalising an employee for refusing to do so).  At the end of the day it's your driving licence (and perhaps your life).

51MON - great suggestion, some people are daring to post rules and regulations that you want to pretend don't exist, so lets lock the thread to stop them!

i dont drive a tractor anymore' date='all this RUBBISH about pressure at harvest? farmers being bankrupt?  GET BLOODY ORGANISED

Absolutely, couldn't have put it better myself.

[Pingu]

I'm not far off a lorry stopping distance with the right equipment we have tested this with a local lorry firm we use for everything long distance hauls and all outgoings.  I understand that lorrys are alot tougher and have to follow alot more rules.  But we use as safe equipment as we can and with experienced drivers with few ours being lorry drivers themselves with 30+years experience so I try and learn off them!  But modern tractor tyres can cope with modern speeds I know for a fact the Michilin tyres we use are rated to 65kph and the trailer tyres up to 80kph.  I know the laws are there for a reason but are very outdated I'm happy to take HGV and have all our tractors and trailers MOT'd as I know there all well serviced.  I know its my life/ license on the line and I use my judgement when speed is appropriate and weight and I will run trailer half full if I know its not safe.  I'm by no means saying the law needs to be up to lorry level just increase speed and weight and we'll happily take more test's and license all I've been saying law is out of date. But I'm sorry to say I will go at 50kph when its safe as normaly its the difference between finishing at 1am and not 2+am to be back at work at 7am that is no excuse but I have yet to work or know of a modern large arable unit where this is not the case! And like with this year harvest you are not gonna stop cutting wheat at 11pm if its still 13% keep going till due hits.  I'm sorry if this isn't following the law but every single farmer I know and have worked with are the same and will take more test and MOT to be legal!

[ploughmaster]

At least you have taken the trouble to ensure your equipment is suitable, but the majority don't I'm afraid. 

The only reason that farmers want to run tractors for hauling produce at high speed and weight at present is because it is cheaper than running a lorry.  The reason for this is that currently tractors are not charged for VED, run on rebated fuel and don't have to have a maintenance inspection/service every 6 weeks or an annual MOT (or be used under an expensive operators licence), and drivers are not limited to restricted driving hours.  All that would change if the law were to allow tractors to operate as lorries and I would suggest at this point that you will almost certainly find that a tractor/trailer combination would be vastly more expensive on fuel and tyres and general wear and tear than a truck.  If you want to haul big loads at high speed on the highway - get a lorry 

Why do some (particularly the younger ones) seem to think laws are optional and you can pick and choose which ones you wish to obey???

The law is the law, end of.  If you break it, you will suffer the conquences (and increasingly traffic police, and more particularly, VOSA are making themselves more aware of the laws regarding agriculture, so the chances of being caught are increasing).

You may think you are safe, but I can assure you that tractors are inadequate for heavy loads at high speed.  Continually flouting the law makes it increasingly likely that the existing rules will be further tightened - it is very very unlikely that either maximum speeds or weight limits will be increased if farmers won't stay within existing rules (and if they were increased, a lot of those who flout the current laws would also flout any future ones too no doubt).

As for your utter claptrap about your working hours and pressure of work on arable farms, it comes down to what archbarch has already said: Get Organised!!!  I've spent 30 years working on large arable farms (some of them very large) and I have watched the general standard of farm management go down hill steadily over that time, but I have only ever worked on one farm that needed to work massive hours (and yes, it was down to bad management IMO).  I'm afraid most of the excessively (and dangerously) long working hours invariably come back to bad managers.  In no circumstances is pressure of work a valid excuse for breaking any law.

[Jez]

One final point from me to this endless repetitive thread....

We actually calculated the braking capacity of a NEW trailer while I was based in John Deere uk and even this was under braked. The company we calculated with are a certified trailer brake supplier. There are NO laws regarding tractor brakes and speed.

Interesting to see how a simple topic has sparked so much discussion. I hope the ones who have commented or read this and currently do summer or tractor driver jobs carting grain, silage whatever will think next time they hitch up an implement and set off doing 50kph illegally have taken something away from this....

[Paul Palmer]

I very much doubt you could stop 35 tonnes from 50kph any faster than a lorry could, regardless of the brakes/tyres etc you may fit - it's down to the laws of physics.

Whilst it is possible to equip a tractor for higher speeds legally, unfortunately for your argument there is currently no way to allow an agricultural tractor to draw a gross train weight of more than 24 390kg legally.  The problem is that they would effectively be an LGV at higher weights, and whilst lorries and the laws governing them have indeed advanced massively (particularly in the last 20 years), the design of tractors has not advanced by nearly as much. 

The simple fact is that to carry greater weight, a tractor would have to comply with all the same regulations regarding construction and use as lorries currently do - not simply brakes and suspension, tachographs and fuel, but would also have to have an annual MOT which for lorries means complying with Euro Five emissions rules.  At present agricultural tractors only comply with Tier Three (shortly rising to Tier Four), which is about equivalent to Euro One.  Currently the only agricultural 'tractor' that can comply is the Unimog. 

Even to use a Fastrac at train weights greater than 24 390kg, it would have to be registered as a 'locomotive' (ie. as a 'Heavy Haulage' unit) and would thus be limited to 30mph legal max speed, which is 10mph slower than it can legally go as a purely agricultural tractor.

Getting off the simple subject of speed limits a bit now, but the laws regarding haulage are very complex, and very few people in farming appreciate just how easy a time they have with the comparatively simple rules regarding tractors and trailers or implements on the road (and often don't seem to have the ability/intelligence/common sense to even cope with them).  Trying to get higher speed or weight limits for agricultural tractors is a massive can of worms - you really do not want to go there!  If the agricultural industry has any sense at all, it will keep its head down and keep within the existing regulations  .

Paulali - I will repeat: there is no contradiction.  A standard agricultural tractor is not adequately equipped (even with suspended front axles) to travel at high speed safely, and standard tractor/trailer braking systems are often barely adequate to stop even the maximum permissable gross trailer weight of 18 290kg (another weight limit most in farming are blissfully ignorant of!) safely at 20mph, let alone any faster. 

If the tractor trailer is suitably equipped to make it safe (brakes, tyres and suspension), then it can go faster.

Tyres - there's another one.  How many of you who regard it as OK to travel at 40kph plus have tyres on your tractor which are rated for such speeds - I would guess at 'not many' as high speed rated traction tyres are pretty crap gripwise in wet fields.  Safety again; non-high speed tyre failing at 40kph with 20 tonnes plus of trailer behind (ever seen a tractor leap a hedge??).

Any employer can be held up at a tribunal for trying to insist an employee breaks the law (or indeed for penalising an employee for refusing to do so).  At the end of the day it's your driving licence (and perhaps your life).

51MON - great suggestion, some people are daring to post rules and regulations that you want to pretend don't exist, so lets lock the thread to stop them!

Absolutely, couldn't have put it better myself.

what a great idea,lock the topic, only your views count,this is a forum,which is for people to air there views,,right or wrong,of course there is pressure at harvest time,the weather, breakdowns,was your farm so perfectly ran that you never had problems?

[Pingu]

Now I have very much enjoyed this topic and some spark debate dont mean for it to go round and round, I very much agree lorrys are the answer for bigger longer hauls and can never work out farmers doing long hauls just for sake of having another 200acres of crops.  I use my judgement more then anything I know the law is there and do try to abide by it, I'm not one to go 50 k just because I can and only will if everything I feel up to standard and roads are safe etc not just flat out round country lanes cause I can there's hell of a lot weight there to stop!

I need to find better run arable farm then as never seem to have any time in harvest even decent nights sleep   I'm all for the law being changed but defiantly think needs to be done with tests etc and then the number plates of said tractors and associated trailer on database so Police can see who's running legally and safe and the ones that think they can get away with it cause some others are legal.

Interesting reading Jez our test was only just bit curiosity as lorrys said they thought our brakes were good, but interesting to hear even commercial brakes still arn't good enough under test circumstances

[Paul Palmer]

i dont drive a tractor anymore,all this RUBBISH about pressure at harvest? farmers being bankrupt?  GET BLOODY ORGANISED

if you can organise the weather that would be great,i think that you think when you were working in agriculture it was all better than it is know,

[harvey123]

i dont drive a tractor anymore,all this RUBBISH about pressure at harvest? farmers being bankrupt?  GET BLOODY ORGANISED  

hey if you want to organise the weather for next years harvest please do, as we mainly battle the weather to get our harvests done!

[archbarch]

if you can organise the weather that would be great,i think that you think when you were working in agriculture it was all better than it is know,

Yes i do think it was better than it is now, thats why i decided to give it in, after working for a Contractor you see farmers from a different angle, out of all the farms i went to i could probably count the the ones i could work for on one hand.

hey if you want to organise the weather for next years harvest please do, as we mainly battle the weather to get our harvests done!

farming has always been at the mercy of nature and always will be   what alot of farmers lack to do is plan ahead with combine capacity, trailer capacity, handling facilities, have adequate staff, not to mention the benefits of block cropping. These are simple steps that can be taken on any size unit.

Ive said in previous posts i know of 2 large arable farms run by the same company, same size, same machinery, same amount of staff GOOD MANAGEMENT makes hell of a differance.

I can also give an example of a large unit that would stop the combine at 9pm everynight and 4pm on Sundays, they always finnished the harvest.

I also think with modern tractors the driver is somewhat removed from the machine my opinion and i know you will disagree

[Gav836]

Thats the thing, good management and cropping organisation can make all the difference on a big farm. Our large neighbour practices the latter and it works well, its not unusual to see 2-400acres of rape, peas, beet or wheat in one block on land they farm. They still do long hours but not completely stupid ones. My current manager's son works there harvest time and has earnt the respect of the blokes and manager there through being careful, they also have two migrant workers on trailers.......less said the better.....I nor anyone else wants to meet them on the road

[rich.new holland]

iessu mawr haha , i wonder about all the people commenting in this topic about that we should never go over 20mph i wonder if they speed in there cars    and do 71+ when they should be sticking to 70    not being funny but this is life if everyone obeyed the laws and rules the world would be a perfect place but as everyone one knows fat chance of it happening   

[archbarch]

iessu mawr haha , i wonder about all the people commenting in this topic about that we should never go over 20mph i wonder if they speed in there cars    and do 71+ when they should be sticking to 70    not being funny but this is life if everyone obeyed the laws and rules the world would be a perfect place but as everyone one knows fat chance of it happening 

i can honestly say i dont speed, i stick to the speed limits have done so for a very long time now. While i understand what youre saying as an experiment next time you travel along a motorway fly past a lorry thats doing 56mph then pull into a service station and see how long it is before that lorry passes by

[ihatepoundland]

iessu mawr haha , i wonder about all the people commenting in this topic about that we should never go over 20mph i wonder if they speed in there cars    and do 71  when they should be sticking to 70    not being funny but this is life if everyone obeyed the laws and rules the world would be a perfect place but as everyone one knows fat chance of it happening 

There is a slight difference there, in that very nearly everyone speeding is doing so in a vehicle that is well within the manufacturer's limits. The braking systems, tyre speed loadings etc are all very capable of controlling those vehicles up to their maximum speeds.

[richo]

i can honestly say i don't speed, i stick to the speed limits have done so for a very long time now. While i understand what you're saying as an experiment next time you travel along a motorway fly past a lorry that's doing 56mph then pull into a service station and see how long it is before that lorry passes by

Never takes as long as you think it should to overtake you  does it!

Here is my point of view on this topic.... Our 40K JD's do about 28mph and I will go at that speed when I feel it is safe to do so. I let the type of road, road surface conditions, type of implement or weight of trailer etc dictate what speed I travel at. I am well aware of the law and it is my risk when I break it! When travelling along the A3 from near Wimbledon towards Guildford, for example a, three lane motorway basically I feel it is more dangerous to be going at 20mph when everything else is doing 70mph!