MuirHillyBilly Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Ok I'm not totally non-farmer as I lived on one for 7 years when I was little but I have a few questions for the real farmers that have been nagging a while so any answers would be great 1) What type of work are tractors with Trelleborgs actually used for, can they be pretty much used for anything or are they for really specialist jobs? 2) Why have dual sized wheeled tractors (like County and Muir Hill) disappeared in modern British farms, I mean why do Fendt, Massey or whoever not make modern equivalents, what was their unique purpose back in the day? I know they are still prominent on the continent and USA (FW60, Versatiles, Xerions etc) so why not here? It can't just be a size of farm issue as they were much used in the past? 3) Are Masseys still made in Coventry?, I visited the factory about 22 years ago 4) Is a Claas Xerion 5000 really that big, in models it dwarfs everything, are they only really built for massive farms?! 5) Do slurry tankers and muck spreader basically do the same job or would there be a reason for a farmer to have both? Cheers in advance Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 In answer to question 2, do you mean equal sized wheeled tractors?, Equal sized wheeled tractors like County and Muir Hill had one big draw back over unequal sized four wheel drive tractors there turning circle! though they had fantastic traction qualitys they was about as nimble as an oil tanker!!. Also improvements in four wheel drive transmissions and higher engine outputs today means equal sized wheels have no big advantges over un-equal sized wheels in terms of traction "though some County fans will argue this " JCB Fastracs have equal sized wheels apart from the top end range they launched recently. Articulated tractors like the american ones youj mentions have equal sized wheels but as they bend in the middle the big front wheels do not comprimise the machines ability to turn.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allis8550 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Question 2; The Countys, Muir Hills and Roadless equal size wheel 4x4's all suffered from the same drawback, superb traction ,but an abysmal turning circle. This is why the US built four wheel drives you mentioned, FW60's, Stiegers, MF Artics, Versatiles etc ,all have pivot steering. The modern four wheel drive tractors as we know them, or more accurately "front wheel assist" as our American cousins call them , have traction little short of that of the early Equal wheel 4x4's but can turn on a sixpence by comparison. Question 3; No ,unfortunately the Banner Lane factory closed some years ago, MF's are now built at Beauvais in France. Question 4; Yes the Xerion 5000 is that big, it's rated at 524 hp. This is getting up into Big Bud territory ,and they are absolutely enormous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ertlerik Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 A Xerion is Huge compared to a lot of other tractors, that has a lot to do with the design of the machine, the cab sits completely on top and can rotate. Equal wheeled tractors were an answer to more traction, and the search for traction is still on, we need to reduce compaction and increase traction, so we need duals, tracks, trelleborgs, what ever works best for the situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deere-est Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 My interpretation of the questions and the answers: 1) What type of work are tractors with Trelleborgs actually used for, can they be pretty much used for anything or are they for really specialist jobs? Trelleborg is a manufacturer and so can offer a number of different tyre options by size, application, speed rating and so on. Are you referring to 'Floatation' tyres (?) which are often seen on tractors working on top of cultivated land so as not to cause ruts by spreading the weight of the machine over a larger area. 2) Why have dual sized wheeled tractors (like County and Muir Hill) disappeared in modern British farms, I mean why do Fendt, Massey or whoever not make modern equivalents, what was their unique purpose back in the day? I know they are still prominent on the continent and USA (FW60, Versatiles, Xerions etc) so why not here? It can't just be a size of farm issue as they were much used in the past? You'd have to ask farmers/operators on that one really as to why the shift. It could just be because manufacturers stopped making them or ceased trading completely and therefore the choice was made for them. 3) Are Masseys still made in Coventry?, I visited the factory about 22 years ago No. 4) Is a Claas Xerion 5000 really that big, in models it dwarfs everything, are they only really built for massive farms?! Yes it is! Massive and built with closer markets in mind to their homeland of Germany. With the opening up of sx-State farms of the former USSR countries, the Ukraine and others have hand masses of land taken on by European farmers and so Claas already has a customer base there but nothing to offer them in comparison to Buhler, John Deere, CNH, Challenger and so on . . .. until now! 5) Do slurry tankers and muck spreader basically do the same job or would there be a reason for a farmer to have both? A muck spreader handles the solids and a slurry tanker, the liquids so yes many farms have both. There are 'tanker' spreaders however which will handle 'sloppy' stuff from lagoons. Usually have a V shaped body with a aft to fore auger in the bottom of the V and a side discharge rotor. ie Richard Western SDS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirHillyBilly Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Cheers chaps, brilliant, I am now fully informed I did mean the flotation tyres, I guess you wouldn't keep them on all year round for other jobs? So a Muir Hill has a poor turning circle, I still want one I totally forgot about the Fastrac too. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractorman810 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 question two is prob more than just turn circle, technology has improved so much that modern 4wd's now give as much grip as the older equal wheelers ,remember when they first appeared way back, most farms had 2wd as standard,early jds were hydrallic 4wd, most 4wds arround were conversion by non oem's and added extra cost onto the origonal tractor , so small ploughs ect were the norm, as kit grew so did the need for bigger tractors and traction to pull it, hence the birth of the countys and then the artic mf 1200 / 1250's ,ford fw series ,even when the mf1250 came out mf were already pushing the new 2000 serie mfs with "as much grip as a 1250" but better handling, hence why only some 350 were ever made compaired to the predecesor 1200 , good in their time, but sadly outpaced by the race for speed and money/versabillity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirHillyBilly Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Is it fair to say then that Muir Hill kind of got left behind hence why they went to the wall? I believe County lived on under the arm of Ford didn't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractorman810 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 i belive county were a seperate company ,although someone will know for sure, they just based everything on ford products, although i think they did some landy tests to?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPN Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 i belive county were a seperate company ,although someone will know for sure, they just based everything on ford products, although i think they did some landy tests to?? County did Leylands and Internationals with equal-wheel 4wd, and they did high clearance Masseys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractorman810 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 i didnt realise that the leylands and ih's were countys work to stan [ [ seen pics but asumed they were leylands ect own work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deere-est Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Me too! I thought Leylands were done by Bray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
convo Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 lee great topic ,i must admit i am as green as grass when it comes to the real things ,apart from i have painted a lot of real ones ,and these guys here have probably forgot more than i know about real stuff like this ,some things are just nice to be explained to you and this forum is just the place for that , great reading for me :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirHillyBilly Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Oooooh I like the International, what model is that, a 634? (I'm blind as a bat) You are right Peter we have a whole wealth of knowledge sat in this very forum So what is the history with Versatiles are they an actual make or more of a build behind the badge, I know they did a Fiat years ago as I have seen one, biggest darn Fiat I have ever seen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirHillyBilly Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Just found the 634, I have never seen one of these before, only made for 3 years by County, thank you SPN Turns out a rare example was at a show just up the road from me recently... doh! The pics in this link are the very same beast! http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/International_634_All_wheel_Drive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOLOSHEP1 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 question two is prob more than just turn circle, technology has improved so much that modern 4wd's now give as much grip as the older equal wheelers ,remember when they first appeared way back, most farms had 2wd as standard,early jds were hydrallic 4wd, most 4wds arround were conversion by non oem's and added extra cost onto the origonal tractor , so small ploughs ect were the norm, as kit grew so did the need for bigger tractors and traction to pull it, hence the birth of the countys and then the artic mf 1200 / 1250's ,ford fw series ,even when the mf1250 came out mf were already pushing the new 2000 serie mfs with "as much grip as a 1250" but better handling, hence why only some 350 were ever made compaired to the predecesor 1200 , good in their time, but sadly outpaced by the race for speed and money/versabillity hi sean question do the modern 4 wheel drive tractors drive on all 4 wheels when the diff locs in or just 3 the equal wheel countys drove on all 4 with diff lock and also braked on all4 not just the rears ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbo Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Oooooh I like the International, what model is that, a 634? (I'm blind as a bat) You are right Peter we have a whole wealth of knowledge sat in this very forum So what is the history with Versatiles are they an actual make or more of a build behind the badge, I know they did a Fiat years ago as I have seen one, biggest darn Fiat I have ever seen To answer this one Lee, Versatile was formed in 1947 in Toronto, Canada when it was known as the Hydraulic Engineering Company and produced all manner of agricultural implements. In 1963 they adopted the name "Versatile" and then in 1966 moved to Winnepeg which is when they became involved with producing massive tractors for the vast Canadian wheat fields. In 1991 they became part of Ford New Holland which was the American arm of NH Geotech and which owned Fiat in Europe. Versatile tractors were produced in both Ford blue and Fiat terracotta liveries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 County, Muir Hill and Roadless was seperate companys to Ford. There is a exellent book on this subject called Ford Tractor Converions by Stuart Gibbard published in 1995 and again in 2003. I think it is still available. Costs about 25 quid.. The book covers the history of County, Muir Hill, Doe as well as other less well know manufactures that mainly used Ford skid units for there machines, it is a facinating read and full of nice pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractorman810 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 hi sean question do the modern 4 wheel drive tractors drive on all 4 wheels when the diff locs in or just 3 the equal wheel countys drove on all 4 with diff lock and also braked on all4 not just the rears ? i really do not know with the modern stuff dave, theres so many computers ect running stuff like that i wouldnt even want to guess, seem to remember the 699 was dif locked to full 4wd, but braked on the rears only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allis8550 Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 hi sean question do the modern 4 wheel drive tractors drive on all 4 wheels when the diff locs in or just 3 the equal wheel countys drove on all 4 with diff lock and also braked on all4 not just the rears ? Most tractors will only drive on four wheels with the four wheel drive engaged, engaging the diff lock will only lock the rear axle in most cases. Most modern four wheel drives will default to four wheel drive when the brakes are applied ,so effectively giving you four wheel braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Well... my 10p'th.... On most modern tractors (Hattie anyway)... 4wd engagement locks both axles together... creating drive to both, BUT... the differential on each axle will only allow one driven wheel... activating the auto diff-lock button will sense a spinning wheel and effectively lock the differential so that both wheels on the same axle will spin... in short... 4wd in - one wheel from each axle driven Auto Diff-lock in - any spinning wheel get the opposite wheel (on it's axle) engaged AS WELL.. so... technically speaking... 3wd usually.... if she was spinning front and rear I suppose it would be 4wd ultimately... That's how I understand it anyway... As for braking... most 4wd tractors have electronic engagement... and by virtue of this the 4wd system is engaged when braking (by the light switch I guess)... although the front axle doesn't have any actual brakes in it's assembly... the locked drive train transmits the braking through the transmission and on to the wheels. Does that make any sense to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roberthenning Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 1: Low ground pressure - to keep compaction to a minimum as compaction will cut crop growth for various reasons, of drainage and and damaged soil structure 2: Equal wheelers have dissapeared as they were outdated, hard to manover, cost of wheels, and modern tractors have increased efficiency in puting power to the ground. Tractors are basically always 1 wheel drive, their diffs are lazy and will spin the wheel with the least amount of grip, engage 4wd and it engages 3 wheels, the rear once again will sping the easiest wheel (as lazy and so as it can turn corners) and the front has a limited slip diff, which gives funnily enoug limited slip to either wheel so they can turn, engage diff lock, which lock the tractor in 4wd (still limited slip on front axel) and rear locked solid, but you wont be able to turn the tractor left or right or it will pretty much be hopping as its no slip. And most tractors only brake on the rear, engaging 4wd for "4 wheel braking" however some have braking on the 4wd shaft also, and some you can spec with optional front brakes as well 3: France now 4: Yes, easily as big as a self propelled forage harvester 5: Slurry tankers are for liquid poo which needs to be mixed so as it doesnt block in the tanker and it can all be emptied Manure spreaders are for farm yard manure, mixture of poo and straw or wookd chips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirHillyBilly Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Thanks everyone great information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archbarch Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 having driven Muir Hills the turning circle was better than that of the County due to the drive shaftfor the front axle being down the centre of the tractor, unlike County which was to the side. equal sized wheel tractors have better traction weight is distributed over both axles, and also reduced compaction. The cost and manouverability of equal sized 4wd tractors was there downfall although i never had a problem turning the Muir Hill around. With modern 4 wheel steering systems im surprised more manufacturers havent adopted equal wheel 4wds, so it is probably down to cost. It is interesting that Fendt have larger diameter front wheels than other manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deere-est Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 having driven Muir Hills the turning circle was better than that of the County due to the drive shaftfor the front axle being down the centre of the tractor, unlike County which was to the side. equal sized wheel tractors have better traction weight is distributed over both axles, and also reduced compaction. The cost and manouverability of equal sized 4wd tractors was there downfall although i never had a problem turning the Muir Hill around. With modern 4 wheel steering systems im surprised more manufacturers havent adopted equal wheel 4wds, so it is probably down to cost. It is interesting that Fendt have larger diameter front wheels than other manufacturers. As have some Deutz tractors and yet JCB have reversed their trend - even though some models had a degree of rear wheel steer. I think a lot of it comes down to it 'not looking right' to the old school farmers. As more 'academics' come into the industry and year on year technology is embraced by the user, trends may well change. After all, horses didn't have two short legs at the front and they worked fine! :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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