Niels Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I reckon that in five years from now everyone can give up building custom model tractors. It will just be narrowed down to fitting slightly wider or skinnier tyres and fixing factory errors. Most gaps have been filled and with the hundreds of models coming out every year the rest will be done soon as well. What remains is some farm machinery, especially local build and from small manufacturers that the big boys are unwilling to take. Although even that is changing. Is this just a grim look at the future or am I correct? Spoke to some fellow collectors and they all feel like it. Wierd how things can go. Fifteen years ago i'd dream about the wide range of models available today and now you reckon it was best left as it is. For € 500 you'd buy a whole car full of models and nowdays just 4-5 pieces with rediculous special editions and colour variations following each other so quickly one can barely keep up. I post this in the UH topic but it applies for all manufacturers of course. Nowadays all models are build by little children in China working for 30p an hour in dreadful conditions. The standard of living is increasing rapidly in China and the like so wages will have to rise as well. And then it will be the model prices as well? Plus costs of raw materials rising as well, oil most notably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirwin Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I reckon that in five years from now everyone can give up building custom model tractors. It will just be narrowed down to fitting slightly wider or skinnier tyres and fixing factory errors. Most gaps have been filled and with the hundreds of models coming out every year the rest will be done soon as well. What remains is some farm machinery, especially local build and from small manufacturers that the big boys are unwilling to take. Although even that is changing. Is this just a grim look at the future or am I correct? Spoke to some fellow collectors and they all feel like it. Wierd how things can go. Fifteen years ago i'd dream about the wide range of models available today and now you reckon it was best left as it is. For € 500 you'd buy a whole car full of models and nowdays just 4-5 pieces with rediculous special editions and colour variations following each other so quickly one can barely keep up. I post this in the UH topic but it applies for all manufacturers of course. Nowadays all models are build by little children in China working for 30p an hour in dreadful conditions. The standard of living is increasing rapidly in China and the like so wages will have to rise as well. And then it will be the model prices as well? Plus costs of raw materials rising as well, oil most notably. I have to agree mate, and i think the same will go for collecting models, what do you collect when you already own a detailed replica of every model you ever wanted? Part of the excitement of collecting models was ( for me anyway ) going to shows and searching the internet for handbuilt or converted models that i needed for my collection, but, as i collect Ford tractors, and the way things are progressing at the moment, the next few years could see the completion of my collecting. For me, the amount of new models and the speed at which they are being released is ruining what was a great hobby(obsession). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB Trac Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Agree, too many models to fast at the moment. I enjoy scratch building but seems that the manufacturers will soon have everything that can be produced, produced. Needs to be a happy medium to allow people to keep up. I think UH are the main culprits in this regard. Can't see it lasting however as eventually when a market is flooded the demand drops and seems like to reduce stock and inventory they are doing more and more limited runs of small quantities to compensate for this. People may disagree that the more models the better but a happy medium is always best. Then again they do have a world market. Companies are falling over each other though making the same models (JD baler, TW 25 etc). Seems strange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Palmer Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) i agree with to many models being released,but i still cant get my head around how this affects scratch builders,there have been many members on here saying that all these releases are hurting scratch builders,but you see these same members in the same breath in another topic saying they are going to buy some of these uh releases because some of the releases ,they either drove or remember them from there youth or have another connection with the model,i made quite a few massey convo,s a 690 being one of them,but it doesnt bother me if uh or anybody else is going to mass produce them,the county and tw models seem to be flying off the shelves and that is not hearsay ,thats from farm model retailers,and i bet the 390,690 and mf 2000 series will do the same,that is my opinion Edited February 21, 2012 by Lord Ferguson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB Trac Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Scratch builders build models that are popular but not manstream production models. Now that so many main stream models are being produced there will be less to scratch build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdc Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I reckon that in five years from now everyone can give up building custom model tractors. It will just be narrowed down to fitting slightly wider or skinnier tyres and fixing factory errors. Most gaps have been filled and with the hundreds of models coming out every year the rest will be done soon as well. What remains is some farm machinery, especially local build and from small manufacturers that the big boys are unwilling to take. Although even that is changing. Is this just a grim look at the future or am I correct? Spoke to some fellow collectors and they all feel like it. Wierd how things can go. Fifteen years ago i'd dream about the wide range of models available today and now you reckon it was best left as it is. For € 500 you'd buy a whole car full of models and nowdays just 4-5 pieces with rediculous special editions and colour variations following each other so quickly one can barely keep up. I post this in the UH topic but it applies for all manufacturers of course. Nowadays all models are build by little children in China working for 30p an hour in dreadful conditions. The standard of living is increasing rapidly in China and the like so wages will have to rise as well. And then it will be the model prices as well? Plus costs of raw materials rising as well, oil most notably. I agree with you Niels. On the other hand every UH model I have has been 'modified' (wheels, paint, linkage etc) but I cannot keep up with the releases. All the conversions I and others build from two or more tractors will continue to be unique even if UH bring one out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuirHillyBilly Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I'm not sure we will see the end of scratchbuilders at all, just because a big manufacturer makes the same model doesn't mean there is no place for scratchbuilders. Think about the thousands of models made in the last 40-50 years and yet scratchbuilders still offer great alternatives. Britains built the County 1884 and yet many, most notably DBP, have built further examples many years after. Keep the faith, there will always be room for sure I'm sure so long as they are priced well and are good quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmersam Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm not sure we will see the end of scratchbuilders at all, just because a big manufacturer makes the same model doesn't mean there is no place for scratchbuilders. Think about the thousands of models made in the last 40-50 years and yet scratchbuilders still offer great alternatives. Britains built the County 1884 and yet many, most notably DBP, have built further examples many years after. Keep the faith, there will always be room for sure I'm sure so long as they are priced well and are good quality. Very good point there, and I certainly agree. Out of all of the machines on our farm, only 2 or 3 of them have been made by a model manufacture yet, so there is still certainly a need for scratch builders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughmaster Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) I think perhaps there is a need to distinguish between those who make a model from scratch, in its entirety, and those who merely convert mass produced models, or use parts from mass produced models as a basis for their builds The latter will not be affected much at all - there are plenty of variations on a theme to make. The ones who will (and are already!) suffering are those makers who spent large amounts of time and money to produce accurate models of tractors which have neither been mass produced, nor can easily be converted from existing models - DBP, Brian Norman, Martyn Reeve, Model Tractor Co, Christian Gouel and their ilk (and I would even include Imber and MarGe on the periphery of this sector as well). It is difficult for small scale producers to justify the enormous amount of time and money needed to productionise a previously unavailable tractor model, only to find that a mass manufacturer suddenly decides to produce one as well, which will sell for a fraction of the price. It is no coincidence that the new items from these small scale makers has dwindled to almost nothing. Edited February 26, 2012 by ploughmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Palmer Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 this is very off topic,its supposed to be about uh models for 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughmaster Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 True, but most threads do go off topic at times (there is a thread in the Britains 'suggestions and ideas' section which has been 99% about scratchbuilt trailers, but I haven't seen anyone complain about that one ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Two wrongs don't make a right Clive... but you are indeed correct.. the very nature of this forum is to prompt healthy,respectful debate.. It falls to the Moderation team, at times, to maintain the subject matter within each chosen topic. As you'll see... I've moderated this one now.. so please debate aways guys and gals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTractorCrazy Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 good stuff Mark... One of the good things of this forum is the respectful debate we can have on here... @ Clive : you're point on! I don't think there will be much new models coming from the smaller manufacturers (I wont include Marge Models though, i think they are on the same level as ROS quality wise and are pretty competitive prized) that do not let most of the labor do in countries like China.. There is a market for them, but not for production runs of 250-1000 to justify the costs. I think you'll see production runs by the scratchbuilders of 30-50 pieces from now on and with higher prizes to cover costs of castings and labor as those will sell quicker and costs will thus be met quicker/completely rather then hoping and praying some party like UH won't jump in and take their bread away... If they produce higher numbers and spread the costs over more models to keep the prize per model down, there is a chance a big manufacturer will jump in and produce the same model for much less and leave the scratchbuilder with costs for producing a model that wont be met with the sales anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM190 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 In a word, No. Not in the meantime anyway. 5 Years down the line? Maybe, Don't know, Don't care, Worry about that then.. Basically we just have to be smarter and quicker with what we build. I'll take the Britains Kane for example. I Build mine as soon as the real deal was in the fields. I got a few years good sales of them, at times I couldn't build enough of them quick enough. Brtians turn around and turn them out at £19. Can I compete? NO! and I won't even try to.. You win some you loose some, no point complaining, Are UH etc. gonna stop because of it? NO! Same is going to happen with our Case Maxxum this year by UH brining one out! O well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MODELFARMER Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 and as with the kane the same is currently happening with the tractor, since its announcement our sales have went through the roof!! wile the manufacturers take months to get a model into production its great pr for us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted February 26, 2012 Author Share Posted February 26, 2012 Good thing you split it Mark. I kow it wasn't in the right topic but didn't want to start a new topic just for my moaning. Like I write earlier I reckon the tractor building side will be hit the hardest as those are the models which get mass produced. There will still be a market for highly detailed one-off productions from small builders. They appeal to a certain group of people that can afford them. But other than correcting manufacturers errors I reckon there is little to gain in scratch building your own tractor models. Despite the high output of new models (over 10.000 new items introduced in Nürnburg recently) they can't and don't want to build all machinery that is out there. So there is a bit to gain there. That is of course, if you want something unique. Some people might still build their own despite a large manufacturer already having covered it, I don't know. I can't help reflecting on 'old' times when we had a lot less to choose from but models were a lot cheaper. It left a lot of availabilities for custom builders and it seemed altogether a better world really. So that made me wonder what will happen in five years time. Five years ago, in 2007, UH was just getting started, Britains and Siku produced basic toys, ROS was all quiet and MarGe, Replicagri and the like we had never heard of. I can remember buying the Renault Atles which I reckon was UH's first model? Blown away by the detailing for a low price it looks a bit sad next to today's stuff! Sorry for being so sentimental Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Ferguson Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 No, I don't think it will affect suppliers of good quality, scratch builds and conversions at all. There are a few guys around, who are established well-respected modellers and you only have to put their name against a model to add value to it. And you know that model will never lose value because it was wasn't mass produced. It doesn't matter how good UH models (for example) are, the very nature of mass production means in years to come their value will not appreciate in the same way a private individual's hand-built creation will. Incidentally, I've just ordered a Kane trailer from a scratch-builder... even though I also have one from Britains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertw1 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 What every one hast to remember every time siku, Britain's,uh,ect make a model the manufacture that made the real machine will make new models anyway, so I don't think that people should worry to much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justy 46 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Plenty models that scratch builders can still offer us. They just need look at the topics on the FTF to what collecters what to see produced next & what UH and the like are missing. 80's era JDs, 3cyl Fords, DBs & loads more im sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughmaster Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Indeed they can, but what incentive is there for Brian Norman or David Purdue to invest several thousand pounds in having the masters and moulds produced to manufacture one of those tractor models, when they feel they are likely to find UH suddenly produce one as well, which will be far cheaper and take their market away. The answer, basically, is that they have stopped producing anything new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrol Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I have to say that I applaud UH's success in the market. I'm guessing that at one stage they started out as a small scale model builder but have been brave, taken a few risks and now created a very successful business. They've helped raise the bar on quality ( not just at the model level but also with Siku and Britains) and I think are responsible for expanding the breadth and appeal of the hobby to a much larger group. This broader appeal must be good for the conversionists as there are now more people who will potentially buy their product. Hopefully Imber can soon reset and have a second crack at being the next successful growth story as it would be great to have a second succesful British player in this market. On the number of models, as has been said before, it isn't necessary to buy them all as soon as they come out - people can always wait months/ years before adding them to the collection. I'd prefer to have the broader choice and grow the collection at my own pace rather than the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ferguson Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I have to say that I applaud UH's success in the market. I'm guessing that at one stage they started out as a small scale model builder but have been brave, taken a few risks and now created a very successful business. They've helped raise the bar on quality ( not just at the model level but also with Siku and Britains) and I think are responsible for expanding the breadth and appeal of the hobby to a much larger group. This broader appeal must be good for the conversionists as there are now more people who will potentially buy their product. Hopefully Imber can soon reset and have a second crack at being the next successful growth story as it would be great to have a second succesful British player in this market. On the number of models, as has been said before, it isn't necessary to buy them all as soon as they come out - people can always wait months/ years before adding them to the collection. I'd prefer to have the broader choice and grow the collection at my own pace rather than the other way around. What a cracking post... one I agree with 100% as well .. on every point you've made - many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploughmaster Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 ....... I'm guessing that at one stage they started out as a small scale model builder No, not really, they didn't No-one seems able to get down to the bottom of the actual structure of the company behind UH, but there certainly seem to be a few 'grey' areas, and they erupted onto the diecast scene in the 90's with a host of models - not issued at the huge rate that they do now, but they certainly didn't tentatively enter the market with one or two items and gradually build up from that. Raised the bar? Whilst I would agree that most of their modern image stuff is excellent, you really need to sit down and have a really close look at some of their vintage and classic releases (particularly in 16th) On the number of models, as has been said before, it isn't necessary to buy them all as soon as they come out - people can always wait months/ years before adding them to the collection ...by which time, there will vast numbers more new models that those people will want - the wants lists will get longer and longer, and that is the point which is depressing some people. It isn't easy and clear cut as you seem to imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Steve Harris and I had a conversation about UH at the recent Warickshire show. I'm sure Steve will pass on his opinion / knowledge of what he felt led to UH appearing as they did but the farm side certainly looks to have been lifted in some respects by the Renault / Claas relationship. I'm sure theres a degree of risk involved that has resulted in significant rewards too, that I'm sure UH are now reaping. As for the initial debate. I don't think UH signals the end for the scratch builders. If item product runs are kept low and products maintain functionality superior or different to what UH are producing, I don't see the market drying up. However for a UK produced product on a semi-mass produced scale, unless license protection is legally adhered too, I would say it would be near impossible to compete as we have sadly seen with UH producing DBP's range of product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.watson Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I have to say that I applaud UH's success in the market. I'm guessing that at one stage they started out as a small scale model builder but have been brave, taken a few risks and now created a very successful business. They've helped raise the bar on quality ( not just at the model level but also with Siku and Britains) and I think are responsible for expanding the breadth and appeal of the hobby to a much larger group. This broader appeal must be good for the conversionists as there are now more people who will potentially buy their product. Hopefully Imber can soon reset and have a second crack at being the next successful growth story as it would be great to have a second succesful British player in this market. On the number of models, as has been said before, it isn't necessary to buy them all as soon as they come out - people can always wait months/ years before adding them to the collection. I'd prefer to have the broader choice and grow the collection at my own pace rather than the other way around. excellent points mrol. not much i can add really as it has mostly been covered with everyones posts, but i would like to add that u/h do make models that are affordable to most pockets. some sratch-built models as we know take hours of work to produce and therefore rightly command a premium price, but this puts some collectors, especially the youngsters, out of the market. u/h have produced a decent self propelled sprayer and loads of telehandler variations from a good few makers. i have not seen many scratch-built telehandlers for sale, so i guess we are all pleased that u/h has filled this part of the market at least. interesting topic this, god knows what will be said if schuco go on to release the full sg2 range of deeres........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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