The demise of the scratch builder? 10 years on

[Stabliofarmer]

I recently came across this forum topic from just over 10 years ago and think it makes for some interesting reading at this point in the future. It should also make for some interesting current discussion.

The key themes were:

• The sheer volume of new models coming out each year means there'd be nothing left to make, both as scratch builders and to some extent big manufacturers
• That it would be companies like DBP that suffered most as it becomes riskier to invest in new patterns and moulds
• The speed a scratch builder can develop a model means they can reap the rewards in the year or two before a major manufacturer starts building.

The topic gave a 5 years in the future look so where are we now, 10 years on? If the figures for new models coming out each year weren't over inflated then there's definitely fewer models released each year, interesting that Wiking weren't even in contention back then, I guess they jumped from model railway scales around this time?

I think builders like John Gibson and RJN show there is still plenty of room for scratch built tractors. DBP have produced less but I think this is more due to age, someone else will surely know more about this and Marge have gone from strength to strength, few would describe them as a small player in the game now.

There definitely seems to be fewer scratch builders, or even converters out there these days, particularly those working commercially. I can't particularly pin point why though? There's a range of possibilities, lots and lots has now been made to satisfy those that just want a 'similar' model to something they use in the real world, the rise of the 3D printer has certainly made some obscure items alot cheaper to acquire, many scratch builders, myself included, may have had a reality check on wether it's worth doing for others, if you say typical collectors wage can be £12-15/hr as a very rough outlook then for them to scratch build an item taking 15-20 hrs of work the labour on the model alone is £180-300 so how could you make money when £150-200 is the top end of many peoples budget for farm models.

I'm not sure I've made any real points or asked proper questions to give answers to but hopefully its some food for thought and fuel for an interesting discussion!

[Jack390]

Very interesting topic, I wasn’t collecting 10+ years ago so wouldn’t know the amount of scratch building being done , but I still think there is a large market for it now. Specifically for implements/ trailers which are made in the uk. Most large model making companies don’t make teagle equipment for example, or Richard western. 
on the tractor side of things it seems that some companies are making tractors of an older era, like UH , Replicagri, weise and replicagri , but the likes of Marge , wiking and UH tend to focus on the more modern tractors. Being that there are new tractors coming  out per year in 1/1 scale, there will always be a market for them. But some older tractors haven’t been done yet , which is where the scratch builder comes in handy, people like John Gibson are able to build  these tractors.  To summarise, large model companies do provide a range of models to choose from, but some closer to home pieces of kit or tractors may not be produced by them, creating a market for scratch builders

[SirTainly]

The pattern of reduced releases mirrors some of my other hobbies and interests, and I suspect it's in part due to how manufacturing in China has evolved too. A few years ago a major player in outsourced model making went bust, leading to most of the US outline model train manufacturers consolidating on the remaining companies, which were few in number. This lead to production pipeline delays, and couple this with less favourable exchange rates, Covid related shipping problems, and you can see why that might be slowing down.

[CallumC]

I'd say the 'conversion' standard has changed the most     2006 sorta era when i first joined the forum   people selling 'conversions' were selling models with loaders added, wheels changed, 2wd models, full cut and shunt models  just a vast selection of styles.  Now it's more common to see a repaint job (nothing wrong with this either) or like you've said a more specific customisation (certain stickers lights aerial horns etc to replicate a personal tractor)     the 3d printer has certainly changed the market  but its also made getting some more unique models a tad more obtainable. And also the model kits have been an excellent addition to the hobby. Especially for people who haven't commented to buying all the stocks of  plastic and brass etc needed to do a scratch build.

I don't think we will ever run out of models to make. Likely will see more variations of older casts coming back into production.  Hopefully the hobby doesn't get much more expensive. 

 

[justy 46]

Well. I can think off plenty classics that have not been done yet by the main players... 😁  But things have changed so much over the last 10+ years.  What pulled me into the hobbie was the Britains Heritage range and it just spawned from there. But there is still quiet alot to cover.. 

 

[Cornish-model-farm]

Back in the early 1970s (when my brother and I were boys!) we wrote to Britains suggesting they should make a combine harvester. We enclosed pictures of the Lely Victory Mk 2 - which had a folding header, was British and was, believe it or not, the biggest combine in the world at that time. We got a polite letter back and a complimentary Britains catalogue but no combine! Years later they made the Massey 760. 3D printing has changed everything. Rather than sit around hoping the big manufacturers will make a model you actually want, you can now make your own!

[Cornish-model-farm]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:25 PM, Jack390 said:

Very interesting topic, I wasn’t collecting 10+ years ago so wouldn’t know the amount of scratch building being done , but I still think there is a large market for it now. Specifically for implements/ trailers which are made in the uk. Most large model making companies don’t make teagle equipment for example, or Richard western. 
on the tractor side of things it seems that some companies are making tractors of an older era, like UH , Replicagri, weise and replicagri , but the likes of Marge , wiking and UH tend to focus on the more modern tractors. Being that there are new tractors coming  out per year in 1/1 scale, there will always be a market for them. But some older tractors haven’t been done yet , which is where the scratch builder comes in handy, people like John Gibson are able to build  these tractors.  To summarise, large model companies do provide a range of models to choose from, but some closer to home pieces of kit or tractors may not be produced by them, creating a market for scratch builders

I've got more Teagle models in the pipeline Jack👍

[Stabliofarmer]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:25 PM, Jack390 said:

Very interesting topic, I wasn’t collecting 10+ years ago so wouldn’t know the amount of scratch building being done , but I still think there is a large market for it now. Specifically for implements/ trailers which are made in the uk. Most large model making companies don’t make teagle equipment for example, or Richard western. 
on the tractor side of things it seems that some companies are making tractors of an older era, like UH , Replicagri, weise and replicagri , but the likes of Marge , wiking and UH tend to focus on the more modern tractors. Being that there are new tractors coming  out per year in 1/1 scale, there will always be a market for them. But some older tractors haven’t been done yet , which is where the scratch builder comes in handy, people like John Gibson are able to build  these tractors.  To summarise, large model companies do provide a range of models to choose from, but some closer to home pieces of kit or tractors may not be produced by them, creating a market for scratch builders

I was just getting into the hobby around this time, I joined the old Moira forum in 2011 and then FTF the end of 2012. Reading through old topics back then it felt that everyone was happy to have a go at converting or improving a model, maybe not a full scratch build but certainly wheel swaps etc. I guess that if UH were in their infancy then most of these conversions were on old Britiains and Siku which would be cheap and robust, I know I certainly feel uneasy at the prospect of prying a £70-80 model part which I think is part of the decline. It's very difficult to take a Replicagri etc and make it more detailed, you can change what the tractor is but you can't necessarily improve it, whereas with a Britians or Siku you can.

[Stabliofarmer]

On 8/24/2023 at 9:50 PM, SirTainly said:

The pattern of reduced releases mirrors some of my other hobbies and interests, and I suspect it's in part due to how manufacturing in China has evolved too. A few years ago a major player in outsourced model making went bust, leading to most of the US outline model train manufacturers consolidating on the remaining companies, which were few in number. This lead to production pipeline delays, and couple this with less favourable exchange rates, Covid related shipping problems, and you can see why that might be slowing down.

The model railway stuff was very interesting to read about. I did a university assignment centred around Hornby's business practices and with Kader group buying Sanda Kan it shows just how much of a monopoly Bachmann/Kader have leading to a pricing system that goes up and up till it reaches the limit a customer will pay, rather than competition between firms giving a detail to price balance.

[Stabliofarmer]

19 hours ago, CallumC said:

I'd say the 'conversion' standard has changed the most     2006 sorta era when i first joined the forum   people selling 'conversions' were selling models with loaders added, wheels changed, 2wd models, full cut and shunt models  just a vast selection of styles.  Now it's more common to see a repaint job (nothing wrong with this either) or like you've said a more specific customisation (certain stickers lights aerial horns etc to replicate a personal tractor)     the 3d printer has certainly changed the market  but its also made getting some more unique models a tad more obtainable. And also the model kits have been an excellent addition to the hobby. Especially for people who haven't commented to buying all the stocks of  plastic and brass etc needed to do a scratch build.

I don't think we will ever run out of models to make. Likely will see more variations of older casts coming back into production.  Hopefully the hobby doesn't get much more expensive. 

 

I'd agree with this, the increase in availability leads to greater pickyness. A tractor from the same stable and loose hp bracket no longer suffices, it has to be the exact model being used by the individual buying.

I'm not sure where the hobby will head price wise, that old topic has people discussing £40 models as being expensive, £40 is £60 in todays money so their only matching inflation, and drop to 2008 pre banking crash and that £40 model needs to be £70 to match, which I suppose it is.

[Stabliofarmer]

16 hours ago, justy 46 said:

Well. I can think off plenty classics that have not been done yet by the main players... 😁  But things have changed so much over the last 10+ years.  What pulled me into the hobbie was the Britains Heritage range and it just spawned from there. But there is still quiet alot to cover.. 

 

I was pleased to see in the original topic the 'Justy's campaign for a 3cyl Ford' was already up and running 😄 As you've said there's plenty of gaps to be filled, I expect unless someone was brave enough to set up an English version of Replicagri most of those gaps will remain unfilled. Replicagri impress me the most out of any of the bands, the level of French obscurity they manage to cover, and the price they manage to do it at is admirable.

[Stabliofarmer]

15 hours ago, Cornish-model-farm said:

Back in the early 1970s (when my brother and I were boys!) we wrote to Britains suggesting they should make a combine harvester. We enclosed pictures of the Lely Victory Mk 2 - which had a folding header, was British and was, believe it or not, the biggest combine in the world at that time. We got a polite letter back and a complimentary Britains catalogue but no combine! Years later they made the Massey 760. 3D printing has changed everything. Rather than sit around hoping the big manufacturers will make a model you actually want, you can now make your own!

3D printing, a discussion in it's own right Ian! I'm not sure I'd agree its let anyone make their own. It still requires learning CAD, and even then you need some core physical modelling skills to take a printed part and turn it into a finished model. I do think it will become more and more accessible though, the volume and quality of Youtube guides for learning CAD already far outweight weight those for physical modelling. I would though say the set up costs for printing are dearer, a reasonable computer to run the software, the printer itself and the resin add up to alot more than a craft knife and £20 quid of styrene stock.

[Jack390]

4 hours ago, Cornish-model-farm said:

I've got more Teagle models in the pipeline Jack👍

Look foward to seeing them Ian , what I would love is a teagle titan but I don’t know how that’d go with 3D printing 

[CX820Joe]

3 hours ago, Stabliofarmer said:

I was pleased to see in the original topic the 'Justy's campaign for a 3cyl Ford' was already up and running 😄 As you've said there's plenty of gaps to be filled, I expect unless someone was brave enough to set up an English version of Replicagri most of those gaps will remain unfilled. Replicagri impress me the most out of any of the bands, the level of French obscurity they manage to cover, and the price they manage to do it at is admirable.

It’s a shame a lot of the smaller tractors have been overlooked, would love a Ford 4000 or 4600, and a John Deere 2650/2850 would be good also.  
3D printing just seems to get better all the time, I am seeing some brilliant stuff these days, Ian’s grain dryers for example.  But there is still a place for scratch builders, probably could take all day listing gaps the main manufacturers have missed so far 

[844john]

As the resident Dinosaur here, I agree with a lot of what’s been said. There’s no doubt that the advances in 3D printing has led to a more affordable way for some models to be produced. As James says, it’s not for everyone, just like picking up a knife and a ruler isn’t for everyone either. I still think there will always be a place for both, and I also agree that there’s a lot of models out there yet to be tackled, especially from British manufacturers who are usually overlooked by the European manufacturers.  

[CallumC]

3 hours ago, 844john said:

As the resident Dinosaur here, I agree with a lot of what’s been said. There’s no doubt that the advances in 3D printing has led to a more affordable way for some models to be produced. As James says, it’s not for everyone, just like picking up a knife and a ruler isn’t for everyone either. I still think there will always be a place for both, and I also agree that there’s a lot of models out there yet to be tackled, especially from British manufacturers who are usually overlooked by the European manufacturers.  

It also comes down to preference doesn't it.   For example you could go out and buy a perfectly good table that was made in a factory / by someone using power tools or you could buy the same table made by somebody from scratch with hand tools.  Sometimes it's nice to have something that's been produced using someone's raw skills. 

[844john]

18 minutes ago, CallumC said:

It also comes down to preference doesn't it.   For example you could go out and buy a perfectly good table that was made in a factory / by someone using power tools or you could buy the same table made by somebody from scratch with hand tools.  Sometimes it's nice to have something that's been produced using someone's raw skills. 

Couldn’t have put that better myself Callum, for me personally I like to look at something and know it’s come from someone’s hands. It might not be perfect, but maybe that’s not always the point.

[CallumC]

13 hours ago, 844john said:

Couldn’t have put that better myself Callum, for me personally I like to look at something and know it’s come from someone’s hands. It might not be perfect, but maybe that’s not always the point.

It's something a little more special at the end of the day. But there's definitely a place for the mass produced and the 3d printed.    Long story short   everything has its place and its all down to personal preference.       I also like the mentioned idea of a British replicagri ! Just imagine all the odd bits you could get. 

[Stabliofarmer]

On 8/26/2023 at 9:24 PM, CallumC said:

It also comes down to preference doesn't it.   For example you could go out and buy a perfectly good table that was made in a factory / by someone using power tools or you could buy the same table made by somebody from scratch with hand tools.  Sometimes it's nice to have something that's been produced using someone's raw skills. 

I think that sums it up very well. We buy and sell miniature steam engines and there's a few CNC machined engines cropping up that just lack the sole, or feel of an engine that's been built over the course of many years by an individual's hand. The same absolutely applies to a scratch built model over one of my kits or a 3d print where a machines done most of the work.

[CallumC]

5 hours ago, Stabliofarmer said:

I think that sums it up very well. We buy and sell miniature steam engines and there's a few CNC machined engines cropping up that just lack the sole, or feel of an engine that's been built over the course of many years by an individual's hand. The same absolutely applies to a scratch built model over one of my kits or a 3d print where a machines done most of the work.

Although  your kit does give you a nice bit of an in-between   yes it's it's kit but you still have to put effort into it to get a decent end result 

[CMB]

A British Replicagri would be brilliant, that's my biggest gripe about them and Wiking never making any tractors you see over here, past or present. Even Britains made European tractors back in the day.

[justy 46]

4 hours ago, CMB said:

A British Replicagri would be brilliant, that's my biggest gripe about them and Wiking never making any tractors you see over here, past or present. Even Britains made European tractors back in the day.

They ain't so bad.  Quiet alot off the tractors they make can be found around in reality. Wiking done a Fastrac which is a UK company. Replicagri have done a few NH TMs and a MF 188 lately. It's Schuco and Weise seem to be too focused on tractors only produced in Germany or tractors linked to German brands. Could never see them do a Ford, Leyland or a David Brown.