New V Old kit - a discussion

[844john]

We can joke about it all night, but the truth is a tractor is bought to do a job, not for how it looks or any 'cool factor'. Age has nothing to do with the fact that if you have to sit your arse on something for 12+ hours a day you want it to be as pleasant as possible, - how many reps on the road would swap their current car for a Vauxhall Cavalier, very few I would think. I usually find that the people who most lament the passing of "the good old days" are the ones who's days don't involve sitting on the very thing that they wax so lyrical about. Make no mistake, my heart lies with the classic era, but we can't live in the past, a tractor is first and foremost a tool to do a job and if by modernising that tool it makes the job easier or more pleasant, then that can only be a good thing.

 

On 11/4/2018 at 8:42 PM, Anderson Agri said:

What i keep seeing and get told is young people like me aren't bothering now with vintage stuff and only want modern stuff.. I'm the opposite. In fact i've just purchased something completely different, all will be revealed when it arrives but i'm not sure theres many 19 year olds buying 80 year old tractors that don't even have a key to start them ha ha!!

 

I keep looking and trying to by a classic tractor but most are to far away from me or more than I can afford

 

As you've probably guessed I much prefer classic machinery, they can still do the job reliably are straight forward to fix if they go wrong which isn't any more often than modern kit. I regularly spend days on end sat in the seat and don't at all find it at all uncomfortable, granted I'm not ploughing 500 acre or a contractor on the go every day of the summer but i spend plenty of time in them. Wonder what it would cost to change my TW, 78 and 76 for new equivalents and more to the point what could they do for me that the classics can't.

 

the main point is these modern tractors over 250 plus horsepower to do what tractors of 100 to 150 horsepower were able to do 20 -25 years ago and they call it progress!. Look at the forums own Smithy  his Mc cormick pulling that new plough on demonstration making a beautiful job , no 200 plus horsepower needed there. Mr Smithys driving rig no need for 200 plus horsepower there  I'm afraid personally for me and i say again personally i am not impressed by huge expensive high horsepower all singing dancing techno tractors with drivers just becoming seat jockeys. I have a good friend that has been head tractor driverover 40 years  ford 7710 sq fwd, ford 7810 sq fwd, ford 8730 fwd, new holland tm190, john deere 7810, john deere 8400, john deere 8530, john deere 8370 and currently john deere 8400r. He rates the best years as the ford 8730 and john deere 7810 days as his favourite times. He says all the enjoyment has gone from the job these days he truly feels like a steersman only, the best thing he enjoys is being paid a salary, got his own house the big kit gets work done quick so he has a second job driving patient transport ambulance so he is meeting people and feels appreciated.

 

22 hours ago, prickles said:

the main point is these modern tractors over 250 plus horsepower to do what tractors of 100 to 150 horsepower were able to do 20 -25 years ago and they call it progress!. Look at the forums own Smithy  his Mc cormick pulling that new plough on demonstration making a beautiful job , no 200 plus horsepower needed there. Mr Smithys driving rig no need for 200 plus horsepower there  I'm afraid personally for me and i say again personally i am not impressed by huge expensive high horsepower all singing dancing techno tractors with drivers just becoming seat jockeys. I have a good friend that has been head tractor driverover 40 years  ford 7710 sq fwd, ford 7810 sq fwd, ford 8730 fwd, new holland tm190, john deere 7810, john deere 8400, john deere 8530, john deere 8370 and currently john deere 8400r. He rates the best years as the ford 8730 and john deere 7810 days as his favourite times. He says all the enjoyment has gone from the job these days he truly feels like a steersman only, the best thing he enjoys is being paid a salary, got his own house the big kit gets work done quick so he has a second job driving patient transport ambulance so he is meeting people and feels appreciated.

two sides of the story in one

 

 

22 hours ago, mb86 said:

As you've probably guessed I much prefer classic machinery, they can still do the job reliably are straight forward to fix if they go wrong which isn't any more often than modern kit. I regularly spend days on end sat in the seat and don't at all find it at all uncomfortable, granted I'm not ploughing 500 acre or a contractor on the go every day of the summer but i spend plenty of time in them. Wonder what it would cost to change my TW, 78 and 76 for new equivalents and more to the point what could they do for me that the classics can't.

That is what i am saying too Martin, and again I stress that I get far more joy sat behind the wheel of some proper old-school grunt, the point that i am against is when it's said that modern kit is a step backwards instead of progress. In terms of reliability it undoubtedly is, but for operator comfort and speed of work it is not. This months Classic Tractor has an article with a new Steiger Quadtrack ploughing with a Ford FW60 and for me the article summed it up, the FW was a great place to spend a few hours ploughing with, but for day in, day out use the driver said he wouldn't swap his Case. Smaller farms rely on classics for their day to day running, and I too am loathed to spend on newer equipment that will not do our job any better but will no doubt cost more in terms of maintenance and repairs.

Ultimately, machinery is no different to people, it gets older up to a point where it no longer can do ( or should need to do) a good days work, and that is when the new ones take over.And on that cheery note, I'll climb back behind this old blue bonnet and do my bit for climate change!

 

I agree with you too john, it's horses for corses, I think myself lucky to be able to run a fleet of classics instead of one or two modern ones that need changing every 3 or 4 years. I'm not dissagreeing with you, as I say it's horses for courses. In the classic tractor article there is 300 odd hp between the two so no doubt which can cover more ground but what that FW is doing still impressive at it's age. Like you said about your fourtrack, if only you could still buy them new.

 

Exactly Martin, as an old chap once said to my Dad years ago, the only thing better than a good old one is a good young one! Hope the wife doesn't read this, she might get the wrong idea, mind, after watching Louis Theroux on BBC2 last night, I'm not quite sure I understand what marriage is in America!

 

A modern tractor now that gives trouble just can't be touched.. Main dealer must come out & plug in a diagnostic computer before he even opens his toolbox. Waiting times can be long if your racing against a turn in weather.  I'm not a farmer but I hear if plenty losing their patience with modern kit. We have a 2 year old Weidemann telescopic loader at work and it's a pure pile of scrap .Regenerating ever second day & failing . Nonstop trouble  compared to the 8 year old JCB 531-70 which has been faultless. Could say the same about modern cars even . I don't like the modern diesels with their DPFs & EGR valves having knock on effects on engine oil pressure & engine internals , turbos...you name it leading to very expensive repairs if your car is past warranty.. 

 

12 hours ago, justy 46 said:

A modern tractor now that gives trouble just can't be touched.. Main dealer must come out & plug in a diagnostic computer before he even opens his toolbox. Waiting times can be long if your racing against a turn in weather.  I'm not a farmer but I hear if plenty losing their patience with modern kit. We have a 2 year old Weidemann telescopic loader at work and it's a pure pile of scrap .Regenerating ever second day & failing . Nonstop trouble  compared to the 8 year old JCB 531-70 which has been faultless. Could say the same about modern cars even . I don't like the modern diesels with their DPFs & EGR valves having knock on effects on engine oil pressure & engine internals , turbos...you name it leading to very expensive repairs if your car is past warranty.. 

Don't get me started on DPFs , horrible invention means you can't have a new diesel if you don't go far, compared to a good old Land Rover 90 or something  

 

On 11/4/2018 at 10:37 PM, 844john said:

We can joke about it all night, but the truth is a tractor is bought to do a job, not for how it looks or any 'cool factor'. Age has nothing to do with the fact that if you have to sit your arse on something for 12+ hours a day you want it to be as pleasant as possible, - how many reps on the road would swap their current car for a Vauxhall Cavalier, very few I would think. I usually find that the people who most lament the passing of "the good old days" are the ones who's days don't involve sitting on the very thing that they wax so lyrical about. Make no mistake, my heart lies with the classic era, but we can't live in the past, a tractor is first and foremost a tool to do a job and if by modernising that tool it makes the job easier or more pleasant, then that can only be a good thing.

spot on John,i like the classics,but I wouldn't want to do a12- 14 hour shift on one,the modern tractors are very comfortable,on the other side of the coin I do see a lot of farmers and contractors running tractors that are way to powerful for the job they are doing,look at the quadtracs run in this country,they are not being used very economically pulling very small gear when the quadtracs or other big makes can handle a lot more,also a lot of people criticise new/modern gear and I bet they have never even driven one

 

I've 12 -14 shifts  with 7600 7610 7710 7810 TWs 8730 8670 and 8770  weeks on end seven days a week very good tractors very capable performers did everything ever asked of them with proper power matched implements, not like these over powered combinations satellite guided computerised nonsense for seat jockeys they are not true operators relying on that technology. Smithy and GAV never need all that to get the job done just skill

 

 

drilling in the dark up hill and down dale without any satellite nonsense

 

 

On 11/4/2018 at 10:37 PM, 844john said:

We can joke about it all night, but the truth is a tractor is bought to do a job, not for how it looks or any 'cool factor'. Age has nothing to do with the fact that if you have to sit your arse on something for 12+ hours a day you want it to be as pleasant as possible, - how many reps on the road would swap their current car for a Vauxhall Cavalier, very few I would think. I usually find that the people who most lament the passing of "the good old days" are the ones who's days don't involve sitting on the very thing that they wax so lyrical about. Make no mistake, my heart lies with the classic era, but we can't live in the past, a tractor is first and foremost a tool to do a job and if by modernising that tool it makes the job easier or more pleasant, then that can only be a good thing.

John,I have to agree 100% with what you have said when I started selling I was driving a ford escort estate would I swop it for my new Navara full spec auto no way, But and a big But as I am more a Collectorholic of tractor brochures I can say the new ones are not and will never be as nice and collectable as the old ones, Each to there own as the saying goes. 

 

I still think that we are drifting away from the point that I am trying to make, I have said several times now that my heart will always be with the tractors from the 60's through to the start of this century and that for me designers and manufacturers pretty much peaked in the 90's with products that were still very "fixable", built out of better quality materials and operator comfort and ergonomics finally were realised as being important right from the design stage. I am not trying to say that you need a new machine to do a good job, with "satellite nonsense and seat jockeys", merely that the advances in technology and in the main the area of operator comfort are not a step backwards. Unfortunately,the days of lower skilled operators are here to stay as not enough good young people are coming in to the industry, I've seen the calibre of the drivers run by local contractors slowly decline over the years, with older, more experienced men gradually being replaced by a younger generation whose main priority on a tractor is a good radio and Bluetooth for their phone. Can these be set off to do a good tidy job on Smithy's gear, our ours here for that matter, in many cases I very much doubt it.

Taking the haulage industry as another example, again older trucks to me have more character, but I wonder if Eddie Stobart replaced all of his fleet with 25 year old trucks how many of his long distance drivers would be still there by choice after a few months. These drivers are the equivalent of the contractor whose daily drive is basically his home for much of the year.

At the end of the day, the sole purpose of a tractor is to be part of a chain to put food on our table, it was never designed because of its looks, whether it would become collectable in the future or to please people watching them at work. Agriculture is under increasing pressure to deliver, with a rapidly growing population, more unpredictable weather patterns and a chronic shortage of skilled labour coming in to the industry. When the horse was replaced by the tractor many farmers resented such technology but because of the need to increase food production it was essential to adapt. Now we are seeing the 'horses' that we grew up with being replaced by these computers on wheels, that is just the natural progression for efficient food production.

I think we all agree that we will never see an era of mechanisation with as big a following as the classics, but let's not keep looking to the past, the future for food production is increased efficiency which can only come about through technology whether we like it or not.

9 hours ago, prickles said:

I've 12 -14 shifts  with 7600 7610 7710 7810 TWs 8730 8670 and 8770  weeks on end seven days a week very good tractors very capable performers did everything ever asked of them with proper power matched implements, not like these over powered combinations satellite guided computerised nonsense for seat jockeys they are not true operators relying on that technology. Smithy and GAV never need all that to get the job done just skill

 

 

 

9 hours ago, prickles said:

I've 12 -14 shifts  with 7600 7610 7710 7810 TWs 8730 8670 and 8770  weeks on end seven days a week very good tractors very capable performers did everything ever asked of them with proper power matched implements, not like these over powered combinations satellite guided computerised nonsense for seat jockeys they are not true operators relying on that technology. Smithy and GAV never need all that to get the job done just skill

 

I 100% agree with you Nick we have all done 12-14hr shifts in these tractors back in the days as these tractor was a improvement over what they had replaced , I love driving my E27N and diesel majors about but don't think I could do it every day with a sack over your legs to keep warm allow you could reach the exhaust pipe on them to warm your hands up .I am glad there is these six row beet harvester out there to get done in good conditions as myself and a very good mate (Tim) once done a 36hr shift on a frost I had a ford 6600 with a single row ransomes 33b tanker and he had ford 4600 and 4ton trailer  without the cab and heater which was technology back in them days we would not have been able to finish the field before the frost went out ,we did leave 12 rows in the ground on that occasion as wheel snapped of trailer whilst tipping a load back at pad so we said sad it and packed up . I would like to have some newer equipment to make jobs a bit more comfortable to do but yes you do need the old skills taught to you to get the best out of them . A lot of the operators these days suffer with SHINY PAINT SYDROME and don't won't the older machines        

 

I don't know about everyone else but I'm enjoying having a healthy discussion about this without any picking fault, falling out or trying not to offend.

 

On 11/4/2018 at 3:38 PM, bluegreen said:

What Im finding most sad about farming now is the speed and efficiency that the job is done at...…………………………….I came home from work during the week and passed an empty field of 30 acres of sugar beet that had been harvested during the day!!   Harvested so quick I didn't even get to see any machinery, and the field was left in such good condition that a cultivator drill could have gone in right behind the mystery harvester!!    This is so boring to me,  I remember 20 years ago when the bunker harvesters were in their infancy and two or three tractor trailers were required to keep the machine going.   And quite often it was in a quagmire too and 10 acres a day was an achievement...…………………….same now goes for Potatoes as well.  And cereal combining has gotten super quick as well now that even the guys with 400 acre farms can afford to run a 20yr old Lexion that can cut the whole acreage in 3 days. 

Its no wonder Im reverting to collect more 80s and 90s models and less of the modern day stuff...…………..Bring back the 8210, 3650 and 3090 I say.

modern machinery is no doubt impressive and flash to the younger generation but i am with you 100%, modern stuff holds no fascination for me, especially when people rave on about how great 250 plus horsepower tractors perform with five and six furrow ploughs - joking right?. Progress?+ re gress    nothing spectacular there then!.  Same with models/toys  I'm back with vintage and classics loads more character  and detail- modern stuff all you get is lumps of plastic guards and shapes that look the real machine  and nothing more for your money.

 

 

I agree entirely with what you both say, I grew up with and learned to drive on  the tractors of the 70's, 80's and 90's and I believe older machinery has much more character, is typically more reliable and will always have more of a following than any modern machines, but, and it is a big but, if you have to sit on a tractor all day long then the modern ones win hands down. Fifty years ago labour on farms was plentiful and we've all seen old photographs of maybe eight or ten tractors working away together in a field, today those ten men and their machines have been replaced by one to do the same amount of work if not more. The weather now seems to leave narrower windows to get land work done which again means covering more ground much more quickly.

It's exactly the same with our cars, the old Morris Minor would be lovely for a potter around in on a nice summers day, but would you really want to do a thousand miles a week in one?

In any typical week I'll drive a mix of vintage, classics and modern tractors and I openly admit that the pleasure of being behind the wheel of say a 7810 or a 956 cannot be denied, but if I've got to sit on one for hours on end then I'm afraid the new machine will always have the biggest pull. 

 

 

Vintage working days are a great day out to relive those mems of the old reliable beasts at work. Be it silage , grain, ploughing or what ever & they have really taken off over here along with charity vintage road runs .. You can go to an event & see everything from a Fordson Dexta to a TW-35 pumping out clouds of black smoke side by side. That's the answer guys. Now arable farming is not the biggest thing in my area ...its mostly dairy & even tough beet was once a big crop here ...it ain't no more. It's only grown for animal feed & still harvested by tractor . Big tracked combines are very rare & too big . There is a TX66 over the road from me & it's the biggest combine around within a 10 mile radius . Silage gear is the only thing that's probably on a par with the UK scene here. 

 

Wrinkly power  and zimmer frames  pop over after i collect my pension ha ha  will have to go by 4 or nurse  will be after me ! hope matron doesn't find out 

 

 

What i keep seeing and get told is young people like me aren't bothering now with vintage stuff and only want modern stuff.. I'm the opposite. In fact i've just purchased something completely different, all will be revealed when it arrives but i'm not sure theres many 19 year olds buying 80 year old tractors that don't even have a key to start them ha ha!!

 

 

On 11/4/2018 at 8:22 PM, prickles said:

Wrinkly power  and zimmer frames  pop over after i collect my pension ha ha  will have to go by 4 or nurse  will be after me ! hope matron doesn't find out 

 

room in the toolbox for false teeth and hang colostomy bag on the levelling lever should be alright, no need to worry about the noise deafness helps ha ha

 

[robbo]

I thought that I would split this topic off from the "what made you sad today" as it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

I would also point out that from my perspective of looking over the fence that the quality of seedbeds has vastly improved in recent years. They seem to be far more level and the germination is also a lot more even. I would assume that this would lead to better ripening as all of the seeds are at the same growth stage and possibly a better yield as a result.

I had a conversation with a dealer some time ago and he told me of a farm demo that he did around 20 years ago comparing a 100hp 4 wheel drive to an MF165 for top work and rolling. The bigger and heavier tractor was far better balanced and left almost no wheel ruts whilst pulling a 3 gang cambridge roll whereas the 2 wheel drive Massey left quite deep ones. At the end of the field and 4 wheel drive also left less disturbance whilst turning

[SPN]

 

[smithy]

8 hours ago, SPN said:

 

I thought that when he had left his seat the tractor would knock its self out of gear , I don't have GPS myself so not 100% on that but my case and McCormick do

[justy 46]

I suppose going back to Bluegreens post that started this whole topic.. and I can see where his coming from. The speed at which a field is cleaned these days compared to 20 to 30 years ago...Its as he said boring.... Now that's not saying to go back to the old ways by any means..Time is money these days ..So the faster & more efficient a field is harvested the better. But seeing abit of old kit working these days would bring fascination & joy to any of us farm machinery enthusiasts . I can be driving along a back road in the summer & see a fleet of modern JDs silage harvesting with 6210Rs carting with Kane halfpipes & 8000 Series Harvester picking up....then down the road a Fiat 110-90 is chopping with a double chop as a Ford 6600 or 5000 carts away.!!!  I could sit up in the ditch and watch that 110 all day & to heck with the big modern JDs & Fendts up the road. I guess we are just pushing on & getting old. Seeing old stuff working now is few & far between. But when you come across it ...its like a time warp & its nice to see & brings back mems. Even bailing silage is gone ultra modern ..a 200+ HP tractor powering a McHale Fusion & self loading bale trailers ...compared to an 80HP ish Ford 6610 powering a Welger RP12  & hauling in the bales with a single bale pike behind a 4000 to the yard before the stacker & wrapper arrives ..How times have changed..

[Tractorman810]

On 11/7/2018 at 2:55 PM, SPN said:

 

John deere were showing a video similar to this as a safety one a while back, it also included the one where the guy ran into a big pylon in the middle of the field as he was reading a book at the time. Sure we have seen the pics in here , big artic and seeder under it from a helicopter view. Its fine having tech to save seed wastage and alikes but no matter how much you have you still need to be aware and in control was the point . 

[Zebedee]

One problem we have is attracting young people into the industry, I was talking to a farm manager today who had 5 people working for him all under 40 and having modern kit with all the toys was one of the reasons he thought he had attracted and kept a young workforce. 

[and2go]

The thing you have to remember is that the GPS equipped tractor may not be equipped specifically for auto steer,. The so called computers on wheels can be generating/recording data while they are human controlled for later decisions/record keeping. When you see the videos of precision yield calculations for combines and it knowing exactly where the high/low point are (I know this can be retrofitted) modern technology can come to its own. Spraying and fertiliser come to mind. In the days of 'ole  unless you had the time / somebody calculating this out, the rule of thumb would be treat the entire field as equal when it may not be the case. Yes with skill and patience the experienced person could make these specific decisions, however what are seeing is the computer/less experienced operator can work these measurements out to the near as damn it while the experience/time can be spent somewhere else.

Your new machinery has the potential to carry more payload (and arguably safer) to the reduce the number of passes and decrease the time it isn't actually working.

Lighting systems have improved.

 

The older machinery still has its place, when things get sticky or extra capacity is needed you generally see the 90's era stuff in full force. an example when the ground gets sticky folk start buying the old smaller combines because they are lighter. it also means 2 can run while the old one does all the awkward bits slower while letting the new machine munch through the cleaner stuff faster.

Time have also moved on where its not necessarily the operator may not be from a farming background, and having learned all the skills the "hard way". How long does that take 10 years perhaps (every day is a learning day but for a ball park figure). If you can use technology to speed up the learning time / increase reliability and at least teach the basics while letting someone learn from observation while doing the job, with minor cause and affect learning. Another thing to remember is that someone with little knowledge will ask the question "why are we doing it this way?" which may open up opportunities for further improvement of processes.

 

I've rambled (or ranted)  on enough but I'll leave with the thought that occurs quite frequently from my experience of Agriculture (and my non Agri job (can you tell?......)).......

 

"We've always done it this way"

 

PS. I seem to have a thing for older stuff just now.... don't know if its because you don't see a lot of it, or if its because it looks different with manufactures trying different ideas out.

 

As for people doing stupid things with automation. you wont stop idiots just hopefully make it more difficult to become one.